Tag: property

Chinese Real Estate Market Under COVID-19 with Alicia Mou | Denzity Insights

Connect with Alicia Mou:

LinkedIn: https://hk.linkedin.com/in/aliciamou

Real estate is not only one of the most important sectors of economy, but it also plays a crucial role in our lives. COVID-19 has put a break on many countries’ real estate industry. 

In today’s episode, alongside Alicia Mou, we explore the effect of the global pandemic on Chinese real estate market and more.

• How did COVID-19 have any impact on the Greater Bay Area real estate market?
• What measures did the PRC government take?
• Has there been any changes in the overall market price?
• What should you look out for as a foreign investor?
• What alternatives are being utilized because of the travel restrictions?

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

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Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!

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Darren Wong: So hey, Alicia, thanks for joining in. 

Alicia Mou: Hi, Darren. 

Darren: Hey. So thanks for joining the show. And then First of all, please it’d be great if you could introduce yourself to the audience.

Alicia: Sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Alicia. I am the senior legal counsel at import Anna, and also the head of governance and also one of the cofounders of Prop tech Institute. So InfraRed NF is a joint venture real estate private equity fund between InfraRed Capital Partners, which is formerly HSBC specialist investments, and for Vervain resources, which was formerly an app in China. So our focus is on mezzanine financing and also value add investing in Greater China. So born and raised in Hong Kong, Real Estate has always been a very big part of my life and career. So prior to joining InfraRed NF, I was a solicitor at Woo Kwan Lee & Lo where I worked closely with many prominent Hong Kong based real estate developers, such as Cheung Kong Hutchison in their restructuring, and also New World in their privatization of New World China land.

Darren: Actually now think on it, I have known you for so long, almost like 10 years now. This is a really impressive list of things you have done already. Wow. That made me kind of insecure about my own career. But then this is exciting because like, I’ve always wanted to know about Chinese real estate. So we have talked about this before is that like, you know, you’re just someone that’s really close in the market. So it’d be great to have your one two and then tell the audience more about what’s going on and then something that they should be aware of? So the first question I have is that so something that even I don’t understand, really, for Chinese real estate markets, right? There is different zoning, what does that even mean?

Alicia: Sure, actually, this is a really big theme, and the Chinese real estate market in these past few years. And this is the concept of mega city clusters, or sometimes called mega hubs. This is typically defined as a group of two or more adjacent metropolitan cities. And a well known example to many of our Hong Kong viewers would probably be the Pearl River Delta greater Bay Area, which Hong Kong is a part of. The other city clusters that people may have heard of is the jjj (jing-jin-Ji), a bit of a mouthful out there, which is the bay bay region, so the northern part of China, the Yangtze River Delta, so that’s basically Shanghai and the surrounding region. And maybe less well known as the western parts, doesn’t have a very fancy name coining it yet, but sometimes people refer to the CC like Chongqing and Chengdu, which are the anchor cities of the western part of China. And also the central part of China with Wuhan actually as its core.

So it is particularly interesting, actually, when you look at China at night on a NASA satellite map, you see the city clusters I mentioned just now are the ones that shine the most brightly at night. So meaning they’re the most active cities, despite already after office hours time, so they’re the most active cities. So sometimes in terms of investment thesis, our focus is definitely on these mega city clusters. And we sometimes say we’re chasing the stars.

Darren: That’s cool. I hope I can find that.

Alicia: So actually, I just want to build on to that. I think the investing in these mega city clusters would continue to grow. And the really recent, the two sessions held in Beijing the “Lianghui,” it was announced that the PRC government will continue to drive, and leverage the role of these leading cities and city clusters and driving the overall development of the PRC economy and also driving urbanization. And from that increasing employment and also economic growth. And because this theme is continually mentioned, I really do believe that this theme urbanization and investing in Mega city clusters will continue to be a driving force in the Chinese real estate market.

Darren: That’s good. That’s very informative, because I get there’s a lot of things going on. So it was something that I was curious about too, because we’re in Hong Kong, and we’ve heard a lot of things about the greater Bay Area, and in the future, the potential of it. So I kind of want to pick your brain about like— what do you think of the real estate market for the greater Bay Area? And also, do you think it’s like, too early, is it too overly dramatic? And what are the activities like at the moment?

Alicia: Well, definitely, there’s a lot of interest surrounding the greater Bay Area. I think in particular, people based in Hong Kong were particularly interested in seeing how we could gain exposure to the Chinese real estate market in somewhat more familiar areas, because it’s a bit closer to us. So um, well definitely for our companies and areas that we are actively looking into. And we actually see a lot of activities there already. Whether one of them is tuition or even from private buyers. So off the 11 cities that’s from part of the greater Bay Area, I think, definitely Shenzhen is the hottest and I think the city that most investors would feel most comfortable with being a tier one city, and with also a lot of growth. In fact, this may be a surprise, but despite the COVID-19 situation, in April, the residential prices in Shenzhen continue to hike up by 10%

Darren: Wow. 10% Really?

Alicia: Yeah, yeah. So you would imagine like everything would haul or slow down or plummet with the COVID-19 situation in China, but I think in core tier one cities, the growth is so strong the demand is still there. But other cities that I think investors are also actively looking into would be Foshan, Zhongshan, and Zhuhai. I think these are all very familiar names with Hong Kong investors. And what particularly drives interest and also, on course, this whole developments of the greater Bay Area is infrastructure. So you notice all the cities I mentioned just now they’re very well connected to one another, especially connected to the stronger, higher tier cities like Shenzhen, whether by high speed rail or other railways, bridges, whatnot, and the continued growth of these infrastructures. I think these are the kind of the fundamentals that’s really popping the growth of the greater Bay. area, and I personally feel quite optimistic about the growth of this adequate area.

Darren: That’s cool. So going back a little bit to when you said something that in my mind was like, is Shenzhen having a 10% increase? Does that mean the asking price went up to 10% or the transaction went up by 10%?I just want to make sure I remember that.

Alicia: From my understanding it’s more B, I think it’s the overall market price. Partially apart from the I think demand is one thing, but also it’s actually slightly influenced by government policy. Because of the COVID-19 situation, as you may know, the government is unleashing a lot of measures to help many sectors of the economy, including developers, and there’s a bit of speculation there, where people think that “Oh, once these policies are in place, the price would spike even more.” And so it just kind of drove up the prices.

Darren: That’s crazy for someone who doesn’t understand Chinese real estate and understands real estate in a way. That’s crazy. That’s impressive. So speaking of virus, right, as you mentioned just now, how does the virus really affect the Chinese real estate market? And I know that that’s something that a lot of people talk about. But I want to know, like your point of view on that too.

Alicia: Sure. Well, definitely the COVID-19 situation was a shock to everyone. And, of course, China was at the epicenter of this at the very beginning of the global pandemic, and it has been severely impacted. So, one thing that I heard recently that I really like, and I think is applicable to these times is “the only certainty is uncertainty.” And even in the two sessions that I mentioned just now, China, the government has said that they won’t be setting GDP targets this year, which is the first time that the government has done so since 1990. 

Of course, this is a period of great uncertainty for everyone and also especially Chinese market. In my experience, the activity restrictions and also the market sentiment in the earlier phase of the pandemic meant that the sales have slowed down, construction of progress of projects have almost halted. And even a lot of your resources are restricted to working from home but actually not a lot of companies, or at least at all levels of the company, have very sophisticated IP infrastructure. So in our experience, in dealing with PRC developers, we do find that we just can’t reach the guys on the ground or etc. We can only reach management. 

So I think overall, there’s definitely a lot of impact on the Chinese real estate market here. And not only the operation perspective, but also the outbreak and also the shutdown has placed immense pressure on the real estate developers’ cash flows and their ability to practice operations. This is largely due to the slowdown in sales and also delays in obtaining permits from the government. But state support has played a very important role in averting an immediate crash of these developers. 

Basically, the government has told all the local, state bank lenders to support businesses and help them and we have a lot of the developers are actually able to get extensions on loans, and also even press waivers. So for offshore lenders like ourselves, From discussions with our peers and also advisors, we find that not a lot of lenders are actually calling loans and like grabbing assets but rather they take a wait and see approach and how to take a more supportive and just have helping kind of roll out with their counterparties.

Darren: I see. Wow. So since then right, how has the Chinese real estate market been recovered since the virus situation being under control so far.

Alicia: Yep. Well, activities have begun to pick up and I see some residential sales flowing in and as I mentioned, just now the prices in Shenzhen are like crazy given all the circumstances, of course, but all our activities definitely have not fully recovered to pre virus pace but we still, we still see things picking up from our personal experience like for example local blog real estate type of transactions, we see site visits come in. So local potential buyers and sellers, they’re happy to meet and all that. But I guess for foreign investors, there’s still the travel restrictions. And I guess there’s a bit of worry about traveling so there’s less. So like for them, it’d be harder to contact on site dB. But then I think people are looking around this, for example, by doing video tours. So really, you could help in this respect to and in terms of prices, generally stable, if not growing. So, this is how we see, how the market has recovered recently.

Darren: Okay, wow. What do you see as a more long term impact of the virus situation?

Alicia: Yeah, well, I personally think that the COVID-19 situation will accelerate sector consolidation. Worry will become more of a, like a survival of the fittest. With higher quality and well established companies, developers being able to weather the storm, whereas the smaller players in the market may not be able to make it or get eaten up by the bigger players. Because I think the bigger players generally have better credibility. And also, they buy their power banks in terms of their lending, whereas these smaller guys, they’ve always struggled already, they’re already the banks don’t really like to lend to them so they often have to resort to financing by trust companies or other non banking sources and they’re paying in capital cost at like 8% to 15%. And with this crunch in the market, generally from the lending side of things, and also the cash flow, we probably would think that the bigger players would find this as an open opportunity to consolidate and take over some of the land banks from these smaller guys and really, you could see this sector consolidating. So I think the wheels of motion have already been set in place prior to the COVID-19 situation. But this virus really just increased that pace of the winds of evolution of the market.

Darren: I see. So what if smaller guys like me, you know, still brave enough to go into the Chinese real estate markets, what are some things to be aware, you know, like people like me like, or other investors I tend to make when investing in Chinese market.

Alicia: Yeah, I think for foreign investors, the first thing would be repatriation, you need to think about what currency are you investing into China? Are you for example, using US dollars, Hong Kong dollars? So for us, as an US dollar investor we always use an offer transaction structure. So, for example, when we buy a property, we would buy it through an offshore company rather than say buying an asset or buying a PRC holding company or for a lending business, we also always lend to an offshore entity like a Hong Kong company or BVI or Cayman company, which ultimately have presence in the PRC through its subsidiaries. So, yeah this is something that we’re very careful of. So if you’re a foreign investor, I think this is one of the big things that you need to be aware of.

Darren: Hmm, okay. So, are there any tips or tricks that you could share with our audience in terms of doing property sales and purchase in China because I think I remember this is something that you work really closely with in your company. So it would be great to have your insights on that.

Alicia: Sure, in terms of acquiring a property, the biggest thing you need to be aware of is title. So for what you have in mind for the property, make sure you have the right title for it, for example, if you want to make it a hotel, then make sure it has the hotel title or it has commercial title, or if it’s an office, make sure it has a commercial title, etc. So this is the first thing that you need to check. And the other thing I think you need to— oh and in relation to title is that if you think that you need to convert the title, you may need to make sure you have local counterparties that have the experience of taking up title conversion in that are  area, because they would have experience with dealing with the local officials there and their processes. And this is something that’s very important. So you need to be aware of that. 

As a seller, what you really care about is that the buyer pays you right, so I think the general I guess tip, is to make sure you get the buyer to show you a funds proof or even better is to get them to pay you in earnest money. So in Chinese it’s “____”so like get them involved and then make them put a commitment to it. I think this is not just China, I think it’s something universal, but it’s what I see a lot in our Chinese deals.

And whether you’re a buyer or seller, you would definitely want to do counterparty due diligence to make sure you’re not dealing with a fraudulent party. And I think maybe for companies, you would also have a part of compliance and the whole governance process. I think one thing that I found useful in doing deals in China is an app called Tianyancha. So this app would give you a brief overview of a company, director or shareholder or individuals— some basic information, especially whether this person has some lawsuits or blacklisted, for example, the (失信被執行人名單). For example, if they have some credibility issues. I think this would be an initial gloss of like, who this kind of party is, and if we want to dig deeper. But I think ultimately, of course, the best thing is to hire a third party investigator to look into this. There are a lot of companies that do these things but I think as a first step Tianyancha app is quite a useful app that we use.

Darren: Yeah, so is Tianyancha accessible for anyone because it seems like an universal credit score kind of checking then. Am I correct? for Chinese?

Alicia: Yeah, you can just download it off the App Store. Yeah it’s very easy, and I think you pay a very small fee if you want to access more information. But otherwise, I think just basic information is pretty much for free. I think one thing I would like to add is that in our experience, sometimes a lot of counterparties if they want to hide the ultimate beneficial owner, they would do so through a very complicated web of shareholdings and also nominees, like in Chinese authority. So that’s when ultimately, you want to find a third party investigator firm to look into this for you.

Darren: Hmm, I see. It seems like we’re doing advertising for the app. I think we should have some advertising fee for that. Well, so because like, obviously, like we’ve known each other for a long time, I kind of want the audience to know your background, because talking about due diligence is your background coming up to what you do right now. I think it’s all linked together. So it’d be great to tell the audience more about your role in the firm and what does is it like to be in your role?

Alicia: Sure. Well, as I mentioned, I’m the senior legal counsel at InfraRed NF. So my role is really to provide legal coverage to the full lifecycle of transactions from the deal origination to negotiation and execution, and also an asset management type of work.

Apart from the transaction specific, my role is also quite broad in a sense that also looks internally so from the fund establishment, from corporate to corporate governance and to compliance I also look into those as well.

Darren: I see. So how’s it like from serving other professional real estate firms from the outside to working at one in the moment? How do you feel? What’s something that if someone for example, someone that looked at this and went like “hey, I kind of want to get into your role. How’s it like? I just want to know.

Alicia:Well, I think definitely being in the real estate firm brings me much closer to the deal making process, which is something that I really, really enjoy. And also you get to appreciate more of the nuances of the commercial dynamics and also bring it closer to the market. And I think this for me has been a very fruitful experience. I think when I was in private practice, my main clients are a lot of big Hong Kong developers as I mentioned. So back then I served a lot of companies apart from real estate transaction needs, also capital market transactions. So why is it now that I’m in a private equity fund? Well, the type of transactions are slightly different in a sense and for me, especially the debt side is something that was new. So overall, I think it also brought me to a different spectrum of real estate and the type of companies that there are in this field. But overall it was very interesting. And I really enjoyed my current role.

Darren: That’s great, that’s great. Have your experience, working in the professional real estate firm, made you change the way you look at real estate? 

Alicia: Not really, in a sense that one thing that attracted me to a real estate is that no matter how our needs as human beings change, whether we move to co working, co living, or working from home, I think as a human being, at least for the foreseeable future, we definitely need roofs over our head. So I think that sense, you always need real estate, and which in turn means that there will always be demand for this product, no matter how it develops, and transforms. And I think being from a law firm to a real estate firm didn’t really change that view for me. But being in the real estate firm means I’m much closer to the market than being the legal services provider. So which is a personal growth and personal professional development that I really appreciate.

Darren: That’s good. I remember a while at the property tech prop tech institute a video that we did with a brand consultant Tracy Ho. And she said that one thing people keep forgetting is that real estate is something that’s so close to our daily life. I mean, literally, we live in one, we interact with one. People forget how emotional it is. And he keep forgetting the industry because a lot of times we just see it as like stocks here and there. Back and forth. Trade, it’s yours now, it’s the other persons now. So when you talk about your thoughts about it, it reminded me of that moment as well. It’s kind of cool. Yeah. So what kind of take away would you like the audience to have from this video?

Alicia: In terms of takeaways, I think, um, well, let’s talk about the market side first. So I personally think that mega hubs would continue to be a key investment theme in the Chinese real estate market. And in terms of the COVID-19 situation, this has significantly impacted the Chinese real estate market, but it’s looking like it’s recovering. And from a long term perspective, perhaps it will accelerate the consolidation of the market. And in terms of tips and tricks for investing in China, for foreign investors, repatriation is a key risk that you should look into. And always be careful who your counterparty is, and be careful of your land title. And with a fear of this sounding more and more like an add for Tianyancha, you can use Tianyancha as an initial step of counterparty due diligence.

Darren: Tianyancha if you hear it, please give us advertising cost, that’d be great. Actually, um, I mean, like, I actually have so many things I want to ask you and I thought maybe next time we will have like a long discussion or mezzanine loan because something that a lot people don’t understand is why would real estate needs like different types of loan, and even our side projects project prop tech Institute I want to talk more about that next time. And something before that, if people want to reach out to you to find and talk to you more about real estate or you know about this whole industry and so on, how would you suggest people to find out more about you and talk to you about it?

Alicia: They can just give me a message over LinkedIn and Darren, if maybe you could share the link to my LinkedIn

Darren: Sure, that’d be great. Yeah, I really want you to join next time again, because I think just now like even for the first like 10 minutes I got so much out of it. Like wow, this is something that we wish at Denzity insights where everyone could share ideas. We just want to know what’s the best investment or best kind of insights out there. So I really want to say thank you folks for joining in. And I hope the audience took a lot out of this.

Alicia: Thank you Darren. Thanks for having me. 

Darren: All right, until next time then. I’ll see you next time. Thank you.

Alicia: See you next time! Bye.

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Darren ：嘿，Alicia，感謝您的加入。

Alicia Mou：嗨，Darren 。

Darren ：嘿。因此，感謝您參加演出。然後，首先，如果您能向觀眾介紹自己，那就太好了。

Alicia：好的。嗨，大家好。我叫Alicia。我是import Anna的高級法律顧問，還是治理負責人，還是Prop技術學院的聯合創始人之一。因此，InfraRed NF是InfraRed Capital Partners和Vervain Resources的合資房地產房地產私募基金，InfraRed Capital Partners是前HSBC的專業投資，而Vervain資源以前是在中國的應用程序。因此，我們的重點是夾層融資以及大中華區的增值投資。房地產在香港出生並長大，一直是我生活和事業的重要組成部分。因此，在加入InfraRed NF之前，我曾在Woo Kwan Lee＆Lo擔任律師，在那裡我與許多香港著名房地產開發商（例如長江實業和記黃埔重組）以及New World私有化New World進行了密切合作。中國土地。

Darren ：實際上，我已經認識你很久了，差不多十年前。這是您已經完成的事情的令人印象深刻的清單。哇。這使我對自己的職業感到不安全。但這令人興奮，因為就像我一直想了解中國房地產一樣。因此，我們之前談論過的是，您只是一個真正接近市場的人。因此，擁有兩個孩子，然後告訴聽眾更多有關正在發生的事情以及他們應該注意的事情，將是很棒的。所以我要問的第一個問題是，對於中國房地產市場，我什至不了解，對嗎？有不同的分區，這甚至意味著什麼？

Alicia：當然，這確實是一個非常重要的主題，這是過去幾年中的中國房地產市場。這就是巨型城市群的概念，有時也稱為巨型樞紐。通常將其定義為一組兩個或多個相鄰的大城市。對於我們許多香港觀眾來說，眾所周知的例子可能就是珠江三角洲大灣區，而香港是其中的一部分。人們可能聽說過的其他城市群是jjj（jing-jin-Ji），那裡有點大嘴，就是海灣地區，所以中國的北部地區是長江三角洲，所以基本上是上海及周邊地區。也許還不太為人所知的西部地區，但它的名字並沒有花哨的名字，但有時人們將CC稱為重慶和成都，這是中國西部的主要城市。也是以武漢為核心的中國中部地區。

因此，特別有趣的是，實際上，當您在美國國家航空航天局（NASA）衛星地圖上夜間觀察中國時，您會看到我剛才提到的城市群是夜間發光最亮的城市群。因此，這意味著它們是最活躍的城市，儘管已經在辦公時間以外，所以它們是最活躍的城市。因此，有時就投資論點而言，我們的重點肯定是這些巨型城市群。我們有時說我們在追星。

Darren ：太酷了。我希望我能找到。

Alicia：實際上，我只是想在此基礎上繼續前進。我認為在這些巨型城市群中的投資將繼續增長。以及最近在北京舉行的兩屆會議“兩會”，宣布中國政府將繼續推動和利用這些主要城市和城市群的作用，並推動中國經濟的整體發展，以及推動城市化。從那增加的就業以及經濟增長中。而且由於這個主題不斷被提及，我確實相信這個主題的城市化和對巨型城市群的投資將繼續成為中國房地產市場的推動力。

Darren ：很好。這非常有用，因為我知道有很多事情要做。因此，我也對此感到好奇，因為我們在香港，我們已經聽到了有關大灣區的很多事情，以及未來的潛力。因此，我有點想打動您的大腦-您如何看待大灣區的房地產市場？而且，您是否認為為時過早，是否太過戲劇化？現在的活動是怎樣的？

Alicia：好的，當然，大灣區周圍有很多利益。我認為，尤其是香港居民對看到我們如何在一些較為熟悉的領域接觸中國房地產市場特別感興趣，因為它離我們有點近。所以，對於我們正在積極研究的公司和領域，這無疑是很不錯的。實際上，我們已經看到了很多活動。其中之一是學費，甚至是私人購買者。因此，在大灣區部分地區的11個城市中，我認為深圳絕對是最熱的城市，我認為大多數投資者最願意成為一級城市並擁有大量增長的城市。實際上，這可能令人驚訝，但是儘管發生了COVID-19的情況，但在4月份，深圳的住宅價格仍繼續上漲10％

Darren ：哇。 10％真的嗎？

Alicia：是的，是的。因此，您會想像，隨著中國COVID-19的出現，一切都會拖延，放緩或暴跌，但我認為在核心一線城市，增長是如此強勁，需求仍然存在。但是我認為投資者也積極研究的其他城市是佛山，中山和珠海。我認為這些都是香港投資者非常熟悉的名字。尤其是引起人們興趣的，當然還有大灣區的整個發展都是基礎設施。因此，您會注意到我剛才提到的所有城市之間都非常緊密地聯繫在一起，特別是與諸如深圳之類的更強大，更高層次的城市相連接，無論是通過高鐵還是其他鐵路，橋樑，其他方式，以及這些基礎設施。我認為這些是真正跳出大灣區增長的基本面。區域，我個人對這個適當區域的增長感到非常樂觀。

Darren ：太酷了。那麼，回想一下您剛才所說的深圳會增加10％嗎？這是否意味著要價上漲了10％或交易上漲了10％？我只是想確保自己記得這一點。

Alicia：根據我的理解，它是B，我認為這是整體市場價格。我認為需求部分是一回事，但實際上受政府政策的影響很小。如您所知，由於COVID-19的情況，政府正在採取許多措施來幫助許多經濟領域，包括開發商，而且那裡有些猜測，人們認為，“哦，一旦這些政策到位後，價格將進一步飆升。”因此，這只是推高了價格。

Darren ：對於那些不了解中國房地產並且以某種方式了解房地產的人來說，這太瘋狂了。太瘋狂了。這很讓人佩服。所以說到病毒，對，正如您剛才提到的，該病毒如何真正影響中國房地產市場？我知道很多人都在談論這一點。但是我也想知道，也喜歡您的觀點。

Alicia：好的。好吧，COVID-19的情況肯定令所有人震驚。當然，在全球大流行初期，中國就處於這一中心，並且受到了嚴重的影響。因此，我最近聽到的一件事我真的很喜歡，並且我認為適用於這些時代的事情是“唯一的確定性就是不確定性”。甚至在我剛才提到的兩屆會議上，中國政府都表示他們今年不會制定GDP目標，這是政府自1990年以來首次這樣做。

當然，對於每個人，尤其是中國市場來說，這是一個充滿不確定性的時期。以我的經驗，大流行初期的活動限制以及市場情緒意味著銷售放緩，項目進度的建設幾乎停止了。甚至您的很多資源都只能在家里工作，但實際上，不是很多公司，或者至少在公司的各個級別，都沒有非常複雜的IP基礎架構。因此，根據我們的經驗，在與中國開發商打交道時，我們確實發現我們根本無法接觸到當地人等。我們只能接觸到管理層。

因此，我認為總體而言，這裡的中國房地產市場肯定會受到很大影響。不僅從經營的角度來看，而且爆發和停產也給房地產開發商的現金流量和他們的實踐能力施加了巨大壓力。這在很大程度上是由於銷售放緩，以及從政府獲得許可證的延誤。但是國家支持在避免這些開發人員立即崩潰方面發揮了非常重要的作用。

基本上，政府已告知所有當地的州立銀行放款人以支持企業並為他們提供幫助，我們有很多開發商實際上能夠獲得貸款的延期，甚至免除新聞。因此，對於像我們這樣的離岸貸方，從與同行和顧問的討論中我們發現，並不是很多貸方實際上都在呼籲貸款並喜歡資產收購，而是他們採取了觀望的態度，以及如何採取更加支持和公正的態度。與交易對手一起推出有幫助。

Darren ：我明白了。哇。所以從那時起，到目前為止，自病毒形勢得到控制以來，中國房地產市場如何恢復。

Alicia：是的。好吧，活動開始增多，正如我所提到的，我看到一些住宅銷售流入，當然，考慮到所有情況，目前深圳的房價簡直是瘋了，但我們的所有活動肯定還沒有完全恢復為病毒感染前的狀態。步伐，但是我們仍然會從個人經驗中發現事情，例如本地博客房地產類型的交易，我們看到了網站訪問。因此，潛在的本地買家和賣家，他們很高興見到這些。但是我想對於外國投資者來說，仍然存在旅行限制。而且我猜想對於旅行有些擔心，所以這裡的交通更少。因此，像他們一樣，在現場dB上很難聯繫。但是後來我認為人們正在例如通過視頻瀏覽來解決這個問題。因此，實際上，您可以在價格方面就價格方面提供幫助，如果價格不上漲，則價格通常會保持穩定。因此，這就是我們的看法，最近市場已經恢復。

Darren ：好的，哇。您認為該病毒情況對長期影響如何？

Alicia：是的，我個人認為COVID-19的情況將加速行業整合。就像優勝劣汰一樣，憂慮也會越來越多。有了更高質量和信譽良好的公司，開發人員就能夠度過難關，而市場上較小的參與者可能無法做到，或者被較大的參與者吞噬。因為我認為更大的參與者通常具有更好的信譽。而且，他們以貸款的方式購買了電力銀行，而這些小傢伙們一直在掙扎，他們已經是銀行不願向他們藉錢的人，所以他們常常不得不依靠信託公司或其他非銀行來源，他們支付的資本成本約為8％至15％。鑑於市場的緊縮，通常是從貸款方面以及現金流方面，我們可能會認為較大的參與者會發現這是一個合併的機會，可以從較小的參與者那里合並並接管部分土地儲備。伙計們，實際上，您可以看到該行業正在整合。因此，我認為在COVID-19出現之前，已經設置好了運動輪。但是，這種病毒確實增加了市場發展的步伐。

Darren ：我明白了。那麼，如果像我這樣的小傢伙們仍然足夠勇敢地進入中國房地產市場，那麼有什麼需要注意的事情，比如像我這樣的人，或者我傾向於投資的其他投資者，應該知道中國市場。

Alicia：是的，我認為對於外國投資者來說，第一件事就是遣送回國，您需要考慮您在中國投資哪種貨幣？例如，您使用美元，港元嗎？因此，對於我們來說，作為美元投資者，我們始終使用要約交易結構。因此，例如，當我們購買房地產時，我們會通過一家離岸公司購買它，而不是說購買資產或購買一家中國控股公司或從事貸款業務，我們也總是向香港公司等離岸實體貸款或英屬維爾京群島或開曼公司，最終通過其子公司在中國開展業務。所以，是的，這是我們非常小心的事情。因此，如果您是外國投資者，我認為這是您需要意識到的重要事情之一。

Darren ：嗯，好的。因此，在中國進行房地產銷售和購買方面，您可以與聽眾分享任何技巧或竅門，因為我想我記得這與您在公司中緊密合作。因此，擁有您的見解將是很棒的。

Alicia：當然，就購置房產而言，您需要了解的最大事情就是所有權。因此，對於您要考慮的財產，請確保您擁有正確的名稱，例如，如果您想將其設置為酒店，請確保其具有酒店名稱或商業名稱，或者辦公室，請確保它具有商業名稱等。因此，這是您需要檢查的第一件事。我認為還需要做的另一件事-哦，與標題有關，如果您認為需要轉換標題，則可能需要確保您的本地交易對手具有進行標題轉換的經驗。區域，因為他們將有與當地官員和他們的程序打交道的經驗。這是非常重要的。因此，您需要意識到這一點。

作為賣方，您真正關心的是買方向您付款，因此，我想我想提示的一般情況是，確保您讓買方向您展示資金證明，甚至更好的是讓他們向您付款認真的錢。因此，在中文中，它是“ ____”，就像讓他們參與其中，然後使他們對此作出承諾。我認為這不僅是中國，我認為這是普遍的，但這也是我在中國交易中看到的很多東西。

而且，無論您是買家還是賣家，您都絕對希望進行交易對手的盡職調查，以確保您不與欺詐方打交道。我認為也許對於公司而言，您還將擁有合規性和整個治理流程的一部分。我認為我發現在中國進行交易有用的一件事是一個名為“天眼茶”的應用程序。因此，該應用程序將為您提供公司，董事或股東或個人的簡要概述-一些基本信息，尤其是此人是否受到某些訴訟或列入黑名單，例如（失信被執行人名單）。例如，如果他們有一些信譽問題。我認為這將是這樣的聚會的最初印象，如果我們想更深入地了解，這是什麼樣的聚會。但我認為，最終最好的辦法是聘請第三方調查員對此進行研究。有很多公司都在做這些事情，但我認為第一步，Tianyancha應用程序是我們使用的非常有用的應用程序。

Darren ：是的，任何人都可以使用“天眼茶”，因為那時看來這似乎是一種普遍的信用評分。我對麼？中文？

Alicia：是的，您可以從App Store下載它。是的，這很容易，如果您想獲取更多信息，我想您只需支付很少的費用。但除此之外，我認為基本信息幾乎是免費的。我認為我想補充的一件事是，根據我們的經驗，有時很多對手方如果想隱藏最終的實益所有者，他們會通過非常複雜的股權網和被提名人網（例如中國當局）來做到這一點。因此，到了那時，您最終想找到一家第三方調查公司來為您進行調查。

Darren ：嗯，我明白了。似乎我們正在為該應用做廣告。我認為我們應該為此支付一些廣告費。好吧，因為很顯然，就像我們彼此認識很久一樣，我有點想讓聽眾知道您的背景，因為談論盡職調查是指您的背景會隨著您現在的工作而變化。我認為這都是聯繫在一起的。因此，很高興告訴聽眾更多關於您在公司中的角色的信息，而擔任您的角色又是什麼感覺呢？

Alicia：好的。好吧，正如我提到的，我是InfraRed NF的高級法律顧問。因此，我的職責實際上是為從交易發起到談判和執行的整個交易生命週期提供法律保障，以及資產管理類型的工作。

除了特定的交易，我的職責範圍也很廣泛，從基金設立，公司治理，公司治理到合規性等方面，我也在內部進行研究。

Darren ：我明白了。那麼，從外部為其他專業房地產公司提供服務到此刻工作，感覺如何？你覺得怎麼樣？例如，如果有人看著這個，然後像“嘿，我有點想成為你的角色。那是什麼樣？我只想知道。”

Alicia：好吧，我認為進入房地產公司肯定會讓我更接近交易過程，這是我非常非常喜歡的事情。此外，您還將欣賞到更多商業動態的細微差別，並將其拉近與市場的距離。我認為這對我來說是非常有益的經歷。我想我在私人執業時，主要客戶是我提到的很多香港大型開發商。因此，那時我為他們提供了很多服務，除了房地產交易需求，還有資本市場交易。那麼，為什麼現在我進入私募股權基金呢？好吧，從某種意義上來說，交易的類型略有不同，對我而言，尤其是債務方面是新事物。因此，總的來說，我認為這也使我進入了不同領域的房地產以及該領域內的公司類型。但總體而言，這非常有趣。我真的很喜歡我目前的角色。

Darren ：太好了，那太好了。您在專業房地產公司工作的經驗是否使您改變了看待房地產的方式？

Alicia：從某種意義上說，不是真的，這吸引了我一處房地產，這是無論人類隨著我們的需求如何變化，無論我們是去工作，共同生活還是在家工作，我都認為人類至少在可預見的將來，我們絕對需要頂住屋頂。因此，我認為從某種意義上講，您始終需要房地產，這反過來意味著，無論該產品如何發展和轉化，都將始終需要該產品。我認為從律師事務所到房地產公司並沒有真正改變我的看法。但是進入房地產公司意味著我比成為法律服務提供商要更接近市場。因此，我非常欣賞個人成長和個人專業發展。

Darren ：很好。我記得在房地產技術道具技術學院有一陣子，我們和品牌顧問Tracy Ho一起錄製了一段視頻。她說，人們一直忘記的一件事是，房地產與我們的日常生活非常接近。我的意思是，從字面上看，我們生活在一個之中，我們與一個世界互動。人們忘記了它有多激動。而且他一直忘了這個行業，因為很多時候我們只是把它看作是到處都是股票。來來回回。交易，現在是您的，現在是其他人。因此，當您談論自己的想法時，它也讓我想起了那一刻。挺酷的是的那麼，您希望觀眾從該視頻中獲得什麼樣的收穫？

Alicia：關於外賣，我想，嗯，讓我們先談一下市場。因此，我個人認為，大型樞紐將繼續是中國房地產市場的關鍵投資主題。就COVID-19的情況而言，這對中國房地產市場產生了重大影響，但看起來正在復蘇。從長遠來看，也許會加速市場整合。就在中國投資的技巧和竅門而言，對於外國投資者而言，遣返是您應考慮的主要風險。並始終注意對方是誰，並註意自己的土地名稱。而且，由於擔心這聽起來越來越像是對Tianyancha的加法，您可以將Tianyancha作為交易對手盡職調查的第一步。

Darren ：天眼cha，如果您聽到了，請給我們廣告費，這太好了。實際上，嗯，我的意思是，就像，我實際上有很多事情想問你，我想也許下次我們將進行長時間的討論或一團糟，因為很多人不了解的事情是為什麼會真正房地產需求，例如不同類型的貸款，甚至我們的附屬項目項目支持技術學院，我想在下一次談論更多。在此之前的事情，如果人們想與您聯繫以找到有關房地產的更多信息，或者您對整個行業有所了解，等等，那麼您如何建議人們找到更多有關您的信息並與您討論它？

Alicia：他們可以通過LinkedIn和Darren給我發消息，如果您可以共享指向我的LinkedIn的鏈接，

Darren ：當然，那太好了。是的，我真的希望您下次再參加，因為我認為即使是像最初的十分鐘一樣，我也收穫頗豐。就像哇，這是我們希望在Denzity見解中實現的，每個人都可以分享想法。我們只想知道什麼是最好的投資或最好的見解。因此，我真的想說謝謝大家。我希望觀眾能從中受益匪淺。

Alicia：謝謝Darren 。感謝您的款待。

Darren ：好的，直到下一次。下次見。謝謝。

Alicia：下次見！再見

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See you in the next episode! 

Until then, stay home and stay safe.