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Denzity Insights: Japan Residential & Hotels [Expert’s Advice] with Perry Tan

Japan Residential & Hotels [Expert’s Advice] with Perry Tan

In this episode, we take a look at Japanese hospitality real estate and why they may be of interest to investors. Japan is known worldwide as a top tourist destination, and as such it has a booming hospitality industry with offerings ranging from chain-hotels to small room Airbnbs. Today we have Perry Tan to discuss the ins-and-outs of investing in this large market, and how it can appeal to any investor.

Key Discussions

▶  Japanese Residential Market [Expert updates]

▶  Mitigating Risk

▶ Operating A Small Residential Building

▶ Connect with Perry

Description Block 3 – Links & Support

Carry interest: Also called a “promote,” carried interest has been a fundamental part of real estate investment partnerships for decades. Managing partners receive a carried interest, or a share of profits once an asset is sold, in recognition of both the value they bring to the venture and the risks they take. 

Free cash optionality : The quality of being available to be chosen but not obligatory. 

Hospitality assets: Hospitality Property means a full service or limited service hotel or resort, a condominium or timeshare hotel or resort, an extended stay property, or a conference center, and other facilities incidental to, or in support of such property 

Cost of borrowing: The concept of a loan is pretty straightforward: first you borrow money, and then you repay it. But the amount that you must repay is more than the amount you borrow. This is due to interest and fees, which is what a lender charges you for the use of its money 

Yield/Rental sensitive: In finance, sensitivity is the magnitude of a market instrument’s reaction to changes in underlying factors, most often in terms of its price response to other factors. 

Upward risk: Upside risk measures the extent to which the value of a stock or other investment might go up beyond expected levels. 

Capital appreciation: Capital appreciation is a rise in an investment’s market price. Capital appreciation is the difference between the purchase price and the selling price of an investment.,earned%20%242%20in%20capital%20appreciation

Urbanization: Urbanization, the process by which large numbers of people become permanently concentrated in relatively small areas, forming cities. 

Service apartment: Officially, ‘Serviced Apartment’ is the umbrella term for a type of furnished apartment available for short-term or long-term stays, which provides amenities, housekeeping and a range of services for guests and where most taxes and utilities are included within the rental price. 

Investor Relationship: The investor relations (IR) department is a division of a business, usually a public company, whose job it is to provide investors with an accurate account of company affairs. 

First Cabin: First Cabin is a chain offering compact capsule-style rooms.,a%20drawer%20under%20the%20bed

Earthquake regulation (Japan): The Building Standards Law was amended in 1981 to introduce new standards for designing buildings for earthquake resistance. This amendment was introduced as a result of the devastating 1978 quake that struck Miyagi. 

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Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!

▶ Transcript [English & Chinese]

Darren Wong: Hey, Perry. Welcome to the show.

Perry Tam: Hey, how’s it going?

Darren Wong: Very good, very good. So you know, it’s exciting because I’ve known for two and a half, three years through our mutual friend, Geoff. And then, Japan real estate market is something that a lot of people in Hong Kong, obviously interested. And then your backgrounds are unique because not only that residential, you do hospitality, Airbnb and other real estate type, too. So it’s good to pick your brain today. And just start with, would you mind telling the audience, your background and what you do?

Perry Tam: Yeah, sure. So at the moment, I am at Pegasus Capital, and we invest in Japanese real estate. Prior to that, well, I graduated the University of Chicago, and then basically had a finance track by working in investment banking, and also at a fundamental hedge funds, based in Hong Kong. And from there was a lot of bottom up analysis, looking at balance sheets, meeting management and understanding the investment thesis or what not. And it was around 2016,  that I moved back to my family office. And from there, I continued to make investments in the public market, in the debt space, so on and so forth. And one of  the things that I noticed, or what to find attractive about Japan is that if you buy an asset, and you can get leverage on it, you can actually ride a big carry, what I mean by that is that the returns are much higher than the cost of borrowing. And in finance term, I guess we can call this free cash optionality. And therefore, we just first purchased a building in Tokyo, a residential building. And then from there, we got some bank financing. And the idea is not that noble at the beginning, it was basically to generate free cash flow based on the investments and then maybe use it to buy stocks or whatnot. But one thing led to another, I suppose, and Japan, we’ve come to learn, it’s really, really attractive for an investor, and that rode on and continue to grow. And then now we are managing a fund with both my investor capital, and also LP capital, and we invest in what we have been looking into hospitality assets recently.

Darren Wong: I see, that’s good, because, obviously, I think Japan real estate market has been very attractive since five, six years ago. So would you mind telling the audience what’s going on in the residential market in Japan? And then how’d you get involved? And what is your view of the current stage at the moment?

Perry Tam: Sure, let me take a step back and  highlight what I think is exciting about Japan. Number one is the cost of borrowing is really cheap. So let’s say if the rental returns are 4%, 5%, 6%, the cost of borrowing is only around 1%. So if you can get a decent LTV, then it’s basically free cash. Secondly, the structural directory of Japan, I think, in general, residential has been strong for the last many number of years, hotels until recently is very strong. And obviously you also have the more mainstream asset classes like logistics or office, which are also pretty strong. And one important thing about Japan aside from the low cost of financing is that you get freehold ownership, which means that it protects investors, even for foreign investors. And because Japan as a market is very yield sensitive or rental sensitive. The fact that there is rent toward upward risk of  pressure, it means that the capital appreciation potential is high. So your questions are what residential? Is that right?

Darren Wong: That’s correct.

Perry Tam: Okay, specifically for residential, we own  a property in Tokyo at the moment. One in Shibuya-ku, near Harajuku. And the other one in the Tsukiji area. And Tokyo, surprisingly, has had population increase for the last 30 years. So Japan’s undergoing a really strong urbanisation trend, which means that if you are from the ] village, and you grow up there, the next thing you want to do is probably to work at a Tokyo, work at Nagoya, work at Osaka. These are  places which have experienced population increase over time. And that also explains why in Tokyo, the rooms are so small because it’s so crowded and packed. And because of this shortage of rooms available, it actually has a really high occupancy in Tokyo. And also rent has been increasing. I mean, that includes the assets and the properties that we hope to.

Darren Wong: I see. So how’s the experience from the standard market? And then make it considered hospitality, which is the journey behind that. And what’s your current view on the hospitality market as well at the moment?

Perry Tam: Sure. I think when we first purchase residential, it was more about testing the market with more central locations like Roppongi and maybe in Harajuku. So it was all about location, location, location, and we managed to buy an entire building in Harajuku and we got around a 50 to 60%  LTV at 1% cost of financing which is pretty low. And from there, we just realised that we can enhance the rental return. By back then we were doing Airbnb for some of the apartments and Airbnb is a tourist trend and, and all that. And in 2018, there was more regulation for Airbnb, but you can still operate, we can still rent out these apartments as a  service apartment. So they call it monthly mansions in Japan. So in the case of Japan, any rental which is 30 days or more is not considered a hospitality or hotel accommodation. Likewise, in the case of Hong Kong, that break off point is 28. So what that means is if the normal rents is around, let’s say $100, for simplicity, using round numbers, then you can probably rent it out to the business traveller or somebody that wants to rent the place at around $160 to $200. So that is the markup. And that is the enhancement that you could achieve by operating as an Airbnb or service apartment. So how did they get into hotels? I think while because I’m a public market and hedge fund background before, we managed to talk to  a lot of IRs (investment relationships) or CFOs, and all that from listed charities, so also from budding hotel operators that want to go into Japan, one of which was Ctrip. And we were actually the first tenant, sorry, the owner of one of the hotels that Ctrip was operating in Japan, the subsidiary. And because of that they were able to offer above market rental returns, because they had cost efficiency in operations. And nationally, because of that we invested in a couple of hotels in Osaka, and they were intended. So one thing led to another there.

Darren Wong: I see. And then obviously, we cannot deny the fact that it is another COVID-19 impact. There are a lot of these international things happening, the Rugby World Cup, another big game, and then the potential gambling license, that one (topic) I’ll talk to you more about that. So how has the government helped infrastructure and your view on those events? How much has it helped it? And then do you think that the effect will prolong years even after those events?

Perry Tam: Yeah, I think really depends on the view of everybody about cause is it going to be a five year thing, a 10 year thing or two year thing. I mean, my personal view is COVID is a negative event that affects all industries and most industries. But that said, you still have to look at the mid term to long term outlook of any country or anything that you invest in. So I think, you know, they had just now right, I mean, Japan has a lot of the positive drivers for investment and also for tourism. I talked about two already, which is the low cost of funding, and the ownership of freehold ownership. That’s the two that talked about. And the other things that you talked about is the Rugby World Cup and the Olympics. I mean, with or without the Olympics, with or without the Rugby World Cup, I think it’s fair to say that the Japan government has put in a lot of capital to improve the infrastructure of the country in general. So let’s say should we in Tokyo, you’re seeing a complete redevelopment in places like Yokohama or Osaka, you see a lot of capex to renovate or rejuvenate the city and whatnot. And therefore, even you know, for local places is much better or more attractive than it used to be. And for the Olympics, sorry for the casinos, I think they are talks about Osaka, Yokohama and whatnot. I think that’s gonna be a slightly longer term story. But the story is still intact. What I mean by that is, the government’s going to spend capital there, and the government is going to attract casino operators to come in. And one thing you missed this also the Expo that’s happening in Japan in Osaka. So that’s in between the casinos and after the Olympics. So you have all these drivers in Japan, I mean, where the government’s willing to spend. And if you talk about guests or tourists that are willing to come and travel, I mean, naturally, they’ll do the Thailand, so do the Koreas and whatnot. But then the interest is really firmly in Japan. And there’s so much truth for Japan aside from Tokyo, Osaka, maybe Kyoto, they are quite significant, too.

Darren Wong: Really? Okay. Because there’s something that I felt like Japan have to get ready for a lot of things happening, which comes to something that I always want to ask you even as a friend, is that before the show to talk a little  bit about the hospitality market in Japan, a lot of people want to be part of that. And then how do you suggest them to be an operator or an investor and sometimes what kinds of difficulty is that as the operator and investor that people don’t know about? And then lastly of this whole three part question is that, beside COVID-19 impacts, is it worth investing or being operator in the space?

Perry Tam: Sure. I think the competition has increased over the last couple of years. I mean, if investors or your friends came into Japan and made investments, like five years, six years or seven years ago, then it’s going to be much easier to outperform. But because you’re basically riding the upward wave, right? But nowadays, even without COVID, you can get in more competition,  and you get in more upstarts, right? And the general theme that I see for failures, if I may, are hotels or operating businesses that are undifferentiated in poor locations, and with rooms that are built for the ordinary businessman. There’s zero lack of the zero differentiation. And when, let’s say there’s more competition in the market, these guys are the ones that we’ve wiped out. And we actually see that recently, there’s a hotel operator called WBF that went bankrupt recently. And on the papers is also a brand called First Cabin, who are hostels that do capsule hotels. So naturally, in this case, there is a lack of differentiation and they don’t have a product offering. For the hotels that we are operating or invested in, it’s more differentiated either on the cost side or the design side. On the cost side, for example, we are operating a hotel in Kyoto at the moment, and even at a 20% occupancy, we are profitable, so means that in COVID environment, we have profitable. And the rooms that we have are around  17 to 20 square metres. So that means that is much larger than the average business hotel. So most hotels in Japan are actually really small shoe box for the ordinary person that’s going to travelling between cities to work, that no longer really works. And investing in  those assets are going to be problematic. Lastly, about who to work with or whether to start your own hotel operating company, operating business is a lot of time. So you probably have to be on the ground, or you have to have the right people in the ground, if not I don’t think it’s worth doing. Rather, I think it makes more sense to work with an operator with some sort of track record, or, at the very least some business sense and design in management and also strong with numbers, I think, a lot of operators that I’ve talked to, to my investment and due diligence to only have one, but not all three. And that’s why they fail.

Darren Wong: I see. It sounds like you need a superman to be part of the hotel operator, because it’s something that’s, even myself, I think, with my background before as an asset manager, but I try to manage two hotels, and that is a lot of work. I don’t know how to do it. And obviously we talked about COVID a couple times, that’s something that I want to ask you because that sounds really good, you’re doing everything really well. So during the COVID-19, how the government is helping you guys and then how yourself mitigate the risk during a time like this?

Perry Tam: Sure. So at the moment, we have Airbnb and also hotels and service apartments. And I guess the government has been supportive in terms of having subsidies. You know this better than me, but I think it’s similar to that of Southeast Asia or maybe in the US. So some of these we have a work from home subsidies, IT and telecommunication, tele-working subsidies, and also a COVID loan, a zero interest loan, and they’re going to take it a step further, you can probably borrow around 50 to 80 million of low interest or principal only repayment loans. So the banks have been quite easy, or they have been relaxing their requirements. And so therefore, you can cover staff costs, you can cover equipment costs, and you also can borrow money from the government, or related banks at a very low cost. So that’s why you don’t see that many bankruptcies, I mean, you do in Japan, you do see bankruptcies but it’s not at the level of the US or maybe Europe.

Darren Wong: I see. So, going back to a little bit on Airbnb side, I’m just wondering, because a lot of people like smaller investors are going to consider Airbnb or even smaller one who have a consortium of assets for that, how would you feel about the Airbnb future in Japan? And then what do you think the outlook of it?

Perry Tam: Sure, I think if for small investors, I think there are two ways to look at it and I suggest these two schemes. Number one is to buy a residential building, but make sure that it’s in the right location with the right zoning. And  if that checks all the boxes, it can be actually operated as an airbnb 365 days, or it could be converted into a simple lodging, which effectively is a hotel. Under that scenario, it could be leased out to an operator, or the operator can give you, let’s say, pay a rental which is at or slightly below market, but with the upside option to it. I think that’s the best way to work on, to improve the yield or to improve the investment return for a small, ordinary investor. The second way to do it is to do, let’s say there’s a burden of eight floors, maybe the first floor to the third floor, you do a service apartment or airbnb. By service apartment, I mean, subleasing for 30 days. And then put a top floors, you have the fixed reliable income that you’re renting out to the ordinary Japanese family or salaried person, then that way you have diversification of income and also upside, if the service apartment operator or the Airbnb operator generates extra alpha.

Darren Wong: [00:16:22] I see. So I think you cover a lot of detail that I wasn’t expecting to because it’s just things that no one realises that you have to understand the asset, how you work, the location wise, and then even, like residential building can be worked with different type of asset class if you don’t understand what’s going on. So even when the communication with you I know you know your stuff really well for that reason. For the audience that might want to participate in Japan real estate sector, how would you suggest them to participate, for small investors and large investors? And then one thing I was curious is that a lot of people will think that it’s a bit too late to get into the game at the moment, because Japan before was a huge boom, and then things are still going well, in long term, do you think there’s still potential or is it too late to you?

Perry Tam: I think I’ll answer the first part first. For small investors, I think if they’re buying units or apartments themselves, and they should look at core central locations, don’t just chase yield in the middle of nowhere, because as I said earlier, Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya those places, population has been increasing over the years. So the safe bet is probably going to be in Tokyo. And it’s going to be in the main five wards, which is Chuoward, shipway ward, Shinjuku ward, Minato ward, so on and so forth. Focus on those locations. And don’t buy assets that are older than 1983 because of earthquake regulation, and make sure that you buy freehold land, and freehold property, I should say. And from there, basically, you have two strategies: rented out long term to somebody or you can enhance that return by talking to, let’s say, a hotel operator, service apartment operator or an Airbnb operator, which of course I know people that are doing that. That’s one way to do it. For big guys, I think that, depending on how big, I mean, I think looking at residential, offices,  hotels, I think it’s the same story there. I think those are all attractive assets, if you have a lot of capital and maybe logistics. But I’ll probably stay away from retail at the moment. And it’s a similar story in the US whereby you have to the Amazon risk or the e-commerce risk. And, secondly, the valuations are not that cheap. The second part of your question is what?

Darren Wong: Do you think it’s too late when we have to go in or there’s still a lot potential for the markets?

Perry Tam: I think there’s a lot of potential. I think one important point to highlight in Japan is that most of the capital flow in terms of property transactions are driven by local corporates, and also by pension funds and charities. And they account for around close to 60% of all transactions in Japan. So as a small investor, or a high net worth investor, you don’t really move the needle, because these are the big guys that are buying for stable cash flow reasons or for tax reduction purposes. Therefore, there’s always a pocket to look at in Japan. And they go for us, at least at Pegasus, to sell to one of these guys have to do the value adding. For investors that are looking at Japan early on, then I think it’s important for them to understand that the person that you sold to is probably a Japanese person, not an international investor. And secondly, You also have to consider the Japanese low cost of funding, that’s going to continue for a long time.

Darren Wong: I see, that’s good. I only have one more question. Because there’s something I’m just curious. What are some projects you’re working on and the opportunity you’re looking at the moment?

Perry Tam: Sure, I think, in real estate investment, you can break down your risk and appetite into several buckets, you’ve got the opportunistic bucket, obviously, and then you have the value add, then you have core plus, which is just normal rental, a bit of tweaks, and then you have core investors, that’s just what stable income. In a COVID environment, I think it’s important for us to, if we’re deploying capital in a risky environment, then we should be more opportunistic, very naturally. And in this market, the most opportunistic assets, I think, are going to be hospitality related assets. And that’s what we’ve seen the biggest discounts. At the moment, we are looking at projects, which are probably gonna be discounted by 40, maybe 50%. By sellers across the board, it could be a fund that has reached maturity, it could be a developer that has borrowed too much money, or they need to release capital for the next project, and so on and so forth, guys like that we talked to at the moment. And we believe that buying at around 30, to maybe 50% discount to what it used to be, it’s going to be very attractive, considering what I just said about the future, tourism trend, maybe one year, maybe two years, maybe three years down the line, it’s probably going to recover from what it is now. And if our hotel operating business is still profitable at 20% occupancy, you can assume that if things go back to 50, 60, 70, how much of a margin that we can make, and how much capital gains that we can achieve by buying at this moment right now.

Darren Wong: It’s huge. I mean, 30% holy crap. That’s a huge number. Actually, if you can, you can pull it off. Yeah.

Perry Tam: And I guess I’m talking, I forgot to say, and we are not really looking at in the middle of nowhere, I’m talking about Tokyo, like 100-room hotel in Tokyo, where I’m talking about a 150-room hotel in Kyoto. I’m talking about a development project in the middle of number, right in the middle of Osaka. And these are things that are really exciting and it was something that I had difficulty sourcing or buying like two or three years ago, because nobody is willing to lower their prices until recently.

Darren Wong: I see. But obviously, I think there are so many things that I want to ask. There are so many questions in my head, for example, different asset class, it can be industrial or other property type that you see interesting, or like location, so on. But we will wait for the next time then. And then for people who want to reach out to you and talk to you more about Japanese hotel, Airbnb residential, how would you suggest them to find out you and talk to you more further?

Perry Tam: Yeah, I think they can send me email at

Darren Wong: Okay, cool. Well, obviously, I will include everything in the show notes. And then I want to say thank you for your time because  it’s something for myself, I am always being so curious, now a lot of people in Hong Kong or other places will be also appreciate your insight and sharing as well.

Perry Tam:  No, my pleasure, my pleasure. I hope you’re doing well, by the way.

Darren Wong: Hopefully, we’ll see. But thanks for time and see you next time. Thank you.

Perry Tam: Okay. Take care.

Darren Wong: Bye bye.

Darren Wong: 嘿,Perry。歡迎你來到本集節目。

Perry Tam :嘿,你最近怎樣?

Darren Wong: 非常好,非常好。你知道的,這實在令人興奮,因為我們已經認識了兩年半、三年了,通過我們共同的朋友,Geoff。然後顯然日本房地產是一個很多香港人都很感興趣的市場。而且你的背景很獨特,因為不僅是住宅區,你的工作也包含飯店、Airbnb和其他房地產類型等。所以今天我們有很多東西可以跟你討論。首先,你能告訴聽眾你的背景和你的工作嗎?

Perry Tam :是的,當然。所以目前,我在Pegasus Capital工作,我們投資日本的房地產。在此之前,我畢業於芝加哥大學,然後開始在投資銀行和一家總部設在香港的基礎對沖基金工作,基本上建立了金融方面的工作經驗。在那裡我處理很多非常全面的分析,查看資產負債表,會見管理層,瞭解投資主題或其他相關的工作。大約在2016年,我回到了我的家族理財辦公室工作。在那之後,我繼續在市場上投資,投資債券等等。然後其中一件我注意到的事情是,或者說,日本的吸引力在於,如果你購買了一項資產,並且你可以從中獲得貸款融資,你就可以得到很高的回報。事實上,我的意思是,直到回報率遠高於借貸成本。從財務角度來說,我想我們可以稱之為免費現金選擇。因此,我們在東京購買了一棟住宅樓。然後從那裡,我們得到了一些銀行融資。一開始的想法並不那麼成熟,它基本上是通過投資產生自由現金流,然後可能用來購買股票或其他什麼。但經過一段時間後,我假設在日本,我們逐漸瞭解到,它對投資者來說確實非常有吸引力,而且還在繼續增長。現在我們和我的投資者一起管理一個基金資本和有限合夥資本,我們最近一直在研究及投資的飯店資產。

Darren Wong: 我明白了,這很好,因為,很明顯,我認為日本房地產市場從五、六年前就已經非常吸引人了。你介意告訴觀眾日本住宅市場上的狀況嗎?那你是怎麼開始參與住宅市場的?你對現階段的市場狀況有什麼看法?

Perry Tam: 當然,讓我退一步,突出我認為日本令人興奮的地方。第一,借貸成本真的很便宜。假設租金回報率是4%,5%,6%,那麼借款成本只有1%左右。所以如果你能得到一個理想的貸款價值比,那基本上就是免費現金。第二,日本的發展結構,我認為,總體而言,在過去的許多年裏,住宅市場一直很强大,直到最近,酒店市場都非常强大。顯然,你還有更為主流的資產類別,如物流或辦公,它們也相當强大。還有一件關於日本的重要事情除了融資成本低之外,你還可以獲得自由所有權,這意味著它可以保護投資者,甚至是外國投資者。因為由於日本市場對收益率或租金非常敏感。事實上有租金向上的風險壓力,說明資本增值潛力較大。你的問題是關於住宅市場?對嗎?

Darren Wong: 沒錯。

Perry Tam: 好的,特別是住宅,我們擁有東京的一處房產。其中一個在Harajuku附近的Shibuya-ku。另一個在Tsukiji地區。還有東京,令人驚訝的是,在過去的30年裏,人口一直在增長。所以日本正在經歷一個非常快速的城市化趨勢,這意味著如果你來自村莊,你在那裡長大,下一步你想做的事情可能是在東京工作,在名古屋工作,在大阪工作。這些是人口隨時間增長最顯著的地方。這也解釋了為什麼在東京,房間這麼小,因為它是如此擁擠和擁擠。因為缺乏空置的住宅,東京的入住率非常高。而且房租也一直在上漲。而這包括我們希望得到的資產和財產。

Darren Wong: 我明白了。那麼你在標準市場有什麼經驗呢?然後當你處理酒店業的時候,你現時對飯店市場的看法也是如此?

Perry Tam :當然。我認為,當我們第一次購買住宅時,主要目的的是用戶來測試像六本木和原宿這些中央地方的市場。所以一切都是關於市場的位置,位置,和位置,我們設法在原宿買了一整棟樓,我們得到了大約50%到60%的回報貸款價值比為融資成本的1%,這是相當低的。從我們剛剛意識到我們可以提高租金回報率。那時我們正在為一些公寓做Airbnb,那時Airbnb是一種旅遊趨勢。到了2018年,對Airbnb有了更多的規定,但你仍然可以經營,我們仍然可以將這些公寓作為服務式公寓。所以在日本他們稱之為月宅。因此,在日本,任何30天或30天以上的租金不被視為招待或酒店住宿。同樣,就香港而言,這個點是28。所以這意味著如果正常的租金是,為了簡單起見,假設100美元左右,使用整數,那麼您可以將其出租給商務旅行者或想租房子的人在160到200美元之間。這就是標記。這就是你可以通過Airbnb或服務來實現的增强的公寓。那麼他們是怎麼進飯店的?我想,因為我以前是一個公開市場和對沖基金的背景,所以我們設法與很多國稅局或首席財務官聯繫,所有這些都來自上市慈善機構,還有那些希望進入日本的新興飯店運營商,其中之一就是Ctrip。以及我們實際上是第一個承租人,對不起,Sea Trip在日本經營的一家飯店的所有者,即子公司。以及因為他們能够提供高於市場的租金回報,因為他們的運營具有成本效益。我們在全國投資了幾家飯店,特別是在大阪。所以這一切都是經過我們的仔細安排的。

Darren Wong: 我明白了。顯然,我們不能否認這是另一個冠狀病毒的影響。有很多這樣的國際賽事正在發生,橄欖球世界盃,另一場大型比賽,還有潜在的賭博許可證,我會和你們詳細談談。那麼,政府如何幫助基礎設施建設以及您對這些事件的看法?有多大幫助?那麼,你認為這種影響會持續數年嗎?

Perry Tam :是的,我認為真正取決於每個人對於這件事情的看法,是五年的事,還是十年的事,還是兩年的事。我是說,我個人的看法是冠狀病毒是影響所有行業和大多數行業的負面事件。但也就是說,你還是要看中長期的前景任何國家或你投資的任何東西。所以我想,你們知道,他們剛剛有,我的意思是,日本有很多正面的因素推動投資和旅遊業。我已經談到了所有權的低成本。這就是我們談論的兩個。還有其他的事情例如我們剛談論的奧運會和橄欖球世界盃。我的意思是,不管有沒有奧運會,有沒有橄欖球世界盃,我認為公平地說,日本政府在投入大量資金改善國家的基礎設施。如果我們在東京,你會看到一個完整的發展,在橫濱或大阪這樣的地方進行再開發,你會看到很多資本金被用以翻新或振興都市等等。以及因此,即使你知道,因為當地的地方比過去更好或更具吸引力。為了奧運會,而關於賭場,我想他們在談論大阪、橫濱等等。我想這會是一個稍微長一點的故事。但賭場的發展機會依然存在。我的意思是,政府要在那裡投資,政府要吸引賭場經營者進來。還有一件你忘記了的事,是這次日本大阪世博會。所以那是在發展賭場和之後的奧運會之間。所以你在日本有這麼多發展推動力,我是說,政府願意花錢的地方。如果你談到願意來的客人或遊客旅行,我的意思是,自然,他們會去泰國,韓國和其他什麼的。但是旅客對日本的興趣一直都很高,而除了東京之外,大阪,也許京都,它們也很重要。

Darren Wong: 真的嗎?可以。因為我覺得日本必須為很多事情做好準備,這就是我作為朋友也一直想問你的一件事,也就是在節目開始前要說的,關於日本的飯店市場,很多人都想參與其中。那麼你如何建議他們成為一個運營商或投資者,有時又會有怎樣的困難,特別是人們並不知道的,作為經營者和投資者的困難?最後一個部分的問題是,除了冠狀病毒的影響,還是否值得在該領域投資或成為運營商?

Perry Tam :當然。我認為競爭在過去幾年。我是說,如果投資者或你的朋友來日本投資,比如五年、六年或七年以前,那麼要在競爭中獲勝就很容易了。但因為你的資產基本上是在上升,對吧?但是現在,即使沒有冠狀病毒,你也可以,你會有更多的競爭,對吧?如果可以的話,我認為失敗的主要原因是飯店或經營企業,在貧困地區沒有區別,房間是為普通商人建造的。缺乏了零分化。當市場競爭加劇時,這些人就是我們要消滅的。我們真的看到了最近,有一家名為WBF的飯店運營商最近破產了。報紙上還有一個叫First Cabin的企業,他們是做膠囊旅舘的旅舘。所以很自然,在這種情況下,他們缺乏特色,也沒有產品供應。對於那些我們正在運營或投資,無論是在成本方面還是在設計方面都有更大的特色。例如,在成本方面,我們現時在京都經營一家飯店,即使入住率為20%,我們也是有獲利的,這意味著在冠狀病毒的環境影響下,我們也可以盈利。我們的房間就在附近17到20平方米。這意味著它比一般的商務飯店要大得多。所以日本的大多數飯店其實都很小,像為普通人準備的鞋盒,現在已經不起作用了。投資於這些資產會有問題。最後,關於與誰合作或是否成立自己的飯店運營公司,經營業務是一個很長的時間。所以你可能必須在當地上,或者你必須在當地有合適的人,否則我認為這不值得。更確切地說,我認為與有運作經驗的夥伴一起工作更有意義,或者至少在管理方面有一定的商業頭腦和設計,我想,我見過很多運營商對於我的投資和盡職調查,只有一個,但不是全部三個。這就是他們失敗的原因。

Darren Wong: 我明白了。聽起來你需要一個超人加入飯店營運團隊,因為這是一件事,甚至我自己,我想,有我以前的資產管理背景,但我試圖管理兩家飯店,這是一項大量的工作。我不知道怎麼做。很明顯,我們談了幾次有關冠狀病毒的影響,這是我想問你的,因為這聽起來很好,你做的一切都很好。所以在]冠狀病毒的影響下,政府是如何幫助你們的,以及在這樣一個時期你是如何減輕風險的?

Perry Tam :當然。所以現在,我們Airbnb以及飯店和服務公寓。我想政府在補貼方面一直很支持。你比我更瞭解這一點,但我認為這與東南亞或美國的情况類似。所以我們有一些在家工作的補貼,是嗎以及電信、遠程工作補貼,以及COVID貸款,零利率貸款,他們會更進一步,你大概可以借到5000萬到8000萬的低利率僅限利息或本金的償還貸款。所以銀行一直很寬鬆,或者他們已經放寬了他們的要求。因此,你可以支付員工成本、設備成本,還可以從政府或相關銀行以非常低的成本借款。這就是為什麼你看不到那麼多的破產案,我是說,你在日本有,你確實看到過破產案,但並沒有美國或者歐洲的數字。

Darren Wong: 我明白了。回到Airbnb這個話題,因為很多人,例如小規模的投資者,都想考慮一下Airbnb或更小的公司,他們擁有一個資產聯盟,您對Airbnb在日本的未來有何看法?你覺得前景如何?

Perry Tam: 當然,我認為對於小規模投資者,我認為有兩種方法可以考慮,我建議這兩種方案。第一件事是買一棟住宅樓,但要確保它的位置和分區都是正確的。以及如果檢查了所有的條件,它實際上可以365天都作為airbnb 運行,或者可以轉換為一個簡單的住宿,即實際上是一家飯店。在這種情況下,它可以出租給運營商,或者運營商可以給你,比如說,支付處於或略低於市場水准的租金,但有上行選擇。我認為這是最好的方法提高收益率或提高小型普通投資者的投資回報率。第二種方法是做,比方說這裡有八層樓,可能從一樓到三樓,你做的是服務式公寓或airbnb。我指的是服務公寓,轉租30天。再加上頂層的單位,你就有了固定可靠的收入,你就可以出租給普通人、日本家庭或工薪階層,那麼這樣你就有了收入的多樣化,也有了上行空間,如果服務式公寓運營商或Airbnb生成額外的收入。

Darren Wong: 我明白了。所以我覺得你講了很多我沒想到的細節,因為這只是一些沒人能想到的事情意識到,你必須瞭解資產,你如何工作,位置,然後,甚至,像住宅樓宇,可以使用不同類型的資產類別,如果你不瞭解發生了什麼。所以即使和你交流的時候,我知道你對自己的東西非常瞭解。對於希望參與日本房地產行業的觀眾,對於小投資者和大投資者,您如何建議他們參與?我很好奇很多人會認為現在進入市場有點晚了,因為日本市場以前是十分繁榮,然後事情仍然很順利,從長遠來看,你認為市場仍然擁有潜力還是太遲了?

Perry Tam: 我想我先回答第一部分。對於小規模投資者,我認為如果他們購買單位或公寓本身,他們應該關注中心位置,而不是僅僅在偏僻的地方追求收益,因為正如我前面所說,東京、大阪、名古屋這些地方,人口逐年增加。所以安全的賭注可能在東京。而且可以專注在在五個主要的區域,分別是Chuo區、Shibuya區、Shinjuku區、 Minato區等等。集中在那些地方。要購買1983年以前的資產,因為地震法規的原因,並且確保你購買了,我想說的是,永久擁有的土地和房產。從這裡,基本上,你有兩個策略:長期租給別人或你可以通過與飯店運營商、服務公寓運營商或Airbnb運營商(我當然認識這樣的人)交談來提高回報。那是一種方法。對於大型的投資,我認為,取決於多大,我的意思是,我想看看住宅,辦公室,飯店,我想也是這樣。我認為這些都是有吸引力的資產,如果你有大量的資金和物流。但我現在可能會遠離零售業。在美國也有類似的情况,你要承擔亞馬遜風險或電子商務風險。其次,估值也不那麼便宜。你問題的第二部分是什麼?

Darren Wong:你認為我們必須進入的時候已經太遲了還是市場還有很大的潜力?

Perry Tam :我認為有巨大的潜力。我認為在日本需要強調的一點是,在房地產交易方面,大部分資本流動都是由當地企業推動的,還有養老基金和慈善機構。占日本全部交易的60%左右。所以作為一個小投資者,或者是高淨值投資者,你不會真的動用很多資金的,因為這些大公司是為了穩定的現金流或減稅目的。因此,在日本總有投資的機會可以考慮。他們會來找我們,至少在Pegasus,要賣給這些人中的一個,就必須新增價值。對於關注日本的投資者來說那麼,我認為,讓他們明白,你賣給的人可能是日本人,而不是國際投資者,這一點很重要。以及其次,你還必須考慮到日本的低融資成本,這將持續很長一段時間。

Darren Wong: 我明白了,這很好。我還有一個問題。因為有些事我只是好奇。你在做什麼項目?你目前正在尋找怎樣的機會?

Perry Tam :當然,我想,在房地產投資方面,你可以把你的風險和目標分成幾個部分,很明顯,你有機會投資,然後你就有了增值,然後你就有了收益,這就是只要正常的租金,稍微調整一下,然後你就有了核心投資者,這就是穩定的收入。在冠狀病毒的環境下,我認為我們應該,如果我們在高風險環境中投入資本,那麼我們自然應該更加把握機會。在這個市場上,我認為最能把握機會的資產,將成為飯店相關資產。這就是我們看到的最大折扣。現時,我們正在研究的項目打40折,或者50%。可能是一個開發商借的,可能已經借了太多錢了,或者他們需要為下一個項目釋放資金,等等,諸如此類的傢伙,我們現在談過了。我們相信考慮到我剛才所說的未來,以30%左右的價格購買,可能會比以前有50%的折扣,這將是非常有吸引力的,旅遊業的趨勢,也許一年,也許兩年,也許三年以後,它可能會從現在的狀況中恢復過來。如果我們的飯店運營業務在入住率為20%的情况下仍然盈利,你可以假設,如果情况回到50、60、70%,那麼我們現在可以通過購買來獲得多少資本收益。

Darren Wong: 這太大了。我是說,30%的天啊。這是一個巨大的數位。事實上,如果你能做到的話,你可以做到。是啊。

Perry Tam :我想我在說的是,我忘了說,我們並不是在看偏僻的地方,我說的是東京,比如說東京的100個房間的飯店,我說的是京都的一個有150個房間的飯店。我說的是一個開發專案在中間,正好在大阪的中間。這些都是非常令人興奮的事情,這是我在採購上遇到的困難,像兩三年前一樣,因為直到最近才有人願意降價。

Darren Wong: 我明白了。但顯然,我想我有很多事情想問。我腦子裏有很多問題,比如,不同的資產類別,可以是工業的,也可以是其他的您看到的有趣的或類似位置的產業類型,等等。但我們將等待下一次。還有那些想和你接觸更多,討論關於日式飯店,Airbnb 住宅的人,您會如何建議他們找到您並與您進一步交談?

Perry Tam: 是的,我想他們可以給我發電子郵件到

Darren Wong:好的,酷。嗯,顯然我會把所有的東西都寫在節目筆記裏。然後我想說謝謝你抽出時間,因為這對我也很有幫助,我一直很好奇,現在香港或其他地方的很多人也會很欣賞你的見識和分享。

Perry Tam :不,這是我的榮幸,我的榮幸。我也希望你最近過得不錯。

Darren Wong: 希望我們能再見到你。謝謝你的時間,下次見。謝謝您。

Perry Tam :好的。保重。Darren Wong: 再見。

Market Updates 未分類

Denzity Insights – Data Centre: Rising Demand (Hong Kong & Asia) with Anthony Wong

Data Centre: Rising Demand (Hong Kong & Asia) with Anthony Wong

In the previous episode, we covered many aspects regarding real estate market research. Today, Anthony will share his insights regarding a different segment: the Hong Kong industrial market and the emerging interest in data centres.

  • Data Centre: Rising Demand 
  • Converting Buildings Into Data Centre
  • Hong Kong Data Centre – the comparative advantage

▶ Connect with Anthony:

  • LinkedIn:

▶ Source & Supporting:

Data Center –

RVD statistics –

Buildings Digest –

Land Sale –


Data Centre: A data centre is an enclosed space where everything related to data is stored and handled inside a mass number of computers, devices through many servers and networks.

5G: 5G is the abbreviation for the 5th generation, which refers to the 5th generation of the mobile or cellular networks.

Land acquisition: It is the process by which the government can take over land or property that is privately owned and utilize it for other purposes, especially for public benefits.

Lease modification: It is the newly made changes in a lease that weren’t initially included in the agreement.

Trunking: Trunking is the method that is used to accumulate multiple networks into a single one.

Town Planning guidelines:

Power Supply: In simple words, it is an electrical device that supplies power.

Personal data ordinance:

Wholesale Conversion:



Grand Ming:

industrial revitalization 2.0:

▶ Disclaimer:

This disclaimer informs readers/audience that the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the text/video belong solely to the author & participant, and not necessarily to the participant’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual. 

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

This might be painfully obvious – Please note the following legal conditions:

Denzity owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of Denzity’s video programs and publications (collectively referred to as “Denzity Materials”, with all rights reserved and its right of publicity.

You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g., The South China Morning Post, Bloomberg, New York Times), on your website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium and WordPress), and/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to “Denzity” and link back to the URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.

No one is authorized to copy any portion of the Denzity Materials or use Denzity’s name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another’s products or services.

Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!


[00:00:00] [00:00:00] Darren Wong: [00:00:00] So Anthony, welcome back again.


[00:00:02] Anthony Wong: [00:00:02] Yeah, thank you. Thank you. It’s good to talk to you again, really.


[00:00:07] Darren Wong: [00:00:07] I mean, we do two shows and stuff like that.

[00:00:07]Darren Wong:[00:00:07]我是說,我們做兩個節目之類的。

[00:00:10] So the previously we’ve done a show just now about the research, for the audience who would be interested in learning how to do


[00:00:20] better research on locally or overseas investments. And then would you mind telling the audience who just jumped in without that context before about yourself? And then the episode before that,


[00:00:30] like, what’s that about?


[00:00:32] Anthony Wong: [00:00:32] So yeah, Hey, guys, everyone. If you haven’t checked out a video with Darren, please do check it out again. We talked about


[00:00:40] how to invest real estate proactively and in-depth. So once again, I’ll introduce myself, I’m Anthony Wong. I’m currently a research manager at Colliers


[00:00:50] International. I have an education background and real estate postgraduate degree, and have work experience in Greater China, US and now in Hong Kong. And I’m happy to give


[00:01:00] a little humble opinion about data centre, because this topic is really changing by the date. So really, can give out whatever I can take,


[00:01:10] and whatever I can get, and give my real estate research perspective on this topic, and pleasure to talk more about it.


[00:01:17] Darren Wong: [00:01:17] Yeah, and for the audience that didn’t check out

[00:01:17]Darren Wong:[00:01:17]是的,對於那些沒有退房的觀眾來說

[00:01:20] the resource episode with you, please check it out. Because I think is a very good way to understand what it takes to learn about different assets. And in terms of how to


[00:01:30] do research and everything like that. And then we decided to do a data centre episode, because it’s something that I mentioned in the previous episodes that a lot of my friends are looking into, it’s a very, very hot


[00:01:40] topic, it’s very exciting. So I’m just very happy that you’re able to be here and share with us. So let’s kickstart right away. Why is data centre segment become


[00:01:50] such a hot topic recently?


[00:01:53] Anthony Wong: [00:01:53] Yeah, I mean, data centre is becoming a hot topic, not just in APAC, but globally. I think it’s because of the

[00:01:53]Anthony Wong:[00:01:53] 是的,我的意思是,資料中心正在成為一個熱門話題,不僅在亞太地區,而且在全球範圍內。我想是因為

[00:02:00] global awareness that in the future, AI and technology and data usage is going to be a huge demand. And on top of that,


[00:02:10] starting even a couple years back, data centres is already a growing kind of real estate sectors and technology sector and APAC region.


[00:02:20] This year with the COVID-19, lots of people are staying home, and they’re starting to be aware of the the demand side of what are the technology they


[00:02:30] can make, use and make leverage up when being at home, working from home either entertainment or working. And also work from home,


[00:02:40] these technologies, how are they shaping their lifestyle, right? So from the management side of these data centres, and from the investment side, it’s really


[00:02:50] changing by the day. So it’s really complex topic. And it’s something real estate practitioners, a lot of them themselves are getting themselves adjusted


[00:03:00] to this sector. And as you know, TikTok just purchased a European data centre in Ireland yesterday, they’re going through a lot of US complications, but

[00:03:00]到這個區域。正如你所知,tick tock昨天剛剛在愛爾蘭購買了一個歐洲資料中心,他們正在經歷許多美國的複雜情况,但是

[00:03:10] they’re still investing quite a lot. And increasing cloud services, 5G implementation, a lot of


[00:03:20] companies and countries and regions are heavily dependent on this technology and will be for a lot of emerging economies. According some of the market projections,


[00:03:30] APAC will have about 13.5 billion network devices, connections by 2023. Now from 8.6 billion in 2018, so that’s 5


[00:03:40] billion of change. And also, the number of internet users will grow from 2018 2.1 billion to 3.1 billion in 2023. So


[00:03:50] the amount of data that’s related to that rusty said, was quite large, something that real estate practitioners who have to get into in the future.


[00:04:00] [00:04:00] Darren Wong: [00:04:00] Yeah. When I was three, four years ago, and then I’ve looked into it because of a friend of mine that was considering that, “hey,

[00:04:00][00:04:00]Darren Wong:[00:04:00]是的。當我三、四年前,因為我的一個朋友在考慮,“嘿,

[00:04:10] should I looking at data centre? Should I convert my building into data centre usage?”, which is coming in the next question, right? What are the requirements to convert a building


[00:04:20] to a data centre usage in Hong Kong, like in terms of like maybe floor loading, fire regulation and cooling? And at the same time is that, how many potential buildings can there be in Hong Kong to be converted?


[00:04:30] And lastly, always most important thing as an investor is that, what is the typical cost per square foot to be convert?


[00:04:40] [00:04:40] Anthony Wong: [00:04:40] Well, those are great questions, but I can’t comment too much on the prices, because it’s far fluctuating on different regions. So even if I give an average

[00:04:40][00:04:40]安東尼·王(Anthony Wong):[00:04:40]好吧,這些都是很好的問題,但我不能對價格做太多評論,因為不同地區的價格波動很大。所以即使我給出一個平均值

[00:04:50] price, it might not reflect the overall data centre market. With the new bredding prices, shocking, just purchased somewhere around, I would say, 4 billion


[00:05:00] Hong Kong dollars for a site in in ShaTin, for data centre site. So, to answer your question, really simply, there’s three ways for data centre,


[00:05:10] real estate usage. One is wholesale conversion; another is land acquisition. And then the last is lease


[00:05:20] modification. I think the easiest pathway would be wholesale conversion, which is simply really the change in the use of parts of its existing building.


[00:05:30] So for example, you have an industrial unit already, how do you convert it with the existing, for example, power lines that is necessitated


[00:05:40] into the unit? What are the location that’s not affecting adjacent surrounding uses. So for wholesale conversion, there’s usually no fee for waiving


[00:05:50] any conditions for the change of use. The data centre takes place in the existing building, which is typically according to the lands department and the


[00:06:00] government regulations has to be 15 years older. And the proposed building has to be zoning, industrial, commercial, and old use or other


[00:06:10] specified uses business quotation. So, this is the easiest way in terms of cost flights. So if you’re able to convert into data centre, good for


[00:06:20] you. You can probably change it and if you are in trunking well, which there’s a lot of trunk lines powered by supporting that location, then there’s a high probability of


[00:06:30] going through that wholesale conversion. Another thing is land acquisition, which is a government land that’s issued for sale for data center. And that


[00:06:40] is usually a shootout in the lands department. And so, it’s usually a government site and from a land sale programme, stipulating data centres that what type of


[00:06:50] uses back can the investors have the buyers are able to purchase and really


[00:07:00] depends what location it is and where it is too. And the last one is lease modification. As we develop, so for example, you have an old


[00:07:10] industrial building in Kwai Tsing, for example, which is really hot for data centres right now, how do you redevelop into higher data centres. There’s also regulations. So


[00:07:20] for example, the data centre portion of the redevelopment should be at least 40% assessed based on the


[00:07:30] overall GFA. And another consideration is that the redevelopment has to take place on industrial block. So really, you have to look


[00:07:40] through the Town Planning guidelines that outlines zoning plans, look in the land lease and see what the specifications. And as investor, most of all,


[00:07:50] you need to consider land premium. And that is subjective based on your location and what type of data centre you’re issuing. And what kind of company, are you an overseas


[00:08:00] company, local company? And how long are you proposing this development site for? So these are typically the three pathways to


[00:08:10] go about on data centres development.


[00:08:12] Darren Wong: [00:08:12] I see. I assume that the electrical power grid will affect the potential probability of it. Is there any

[00:08:12]Darren Wong:[00:08:12]我明白了。我假設電網會影響它的潜在概率。有嗎

[00:08:20] difference between, for example, the Hong Kong Island side and Kowloon side? And if so, is there any preference? Do companies normally do both or one of them?


[00:08:30] [00:08:30] Anthony Wong: [00:08:30] Yeah, that’s a good question. I’m not electrician, so I can’t comment the specifications of my research. I’ve read a


[00:08:40] lot about the macro side data centre, but digging down to the technicality, it’s a really complicated topic, which requires


[00:08:50] people with a substantial engineering background. So I’ll give you my two cents on it. I would say, in Hong Kong, really broadly, these principles are


[00:09:00] having reliable power supply. So for example, 99% reliability is really, really high. So specification, you can also look up into the guidelines


[00:09:10] from Hong Kong government website, and also the Hong Kong, low electricity cost is really what is attracting a lot of investors coming to Hong Kong,


[00:09:20] developing data centres, because the fact that Hong Kong is not only reliable, but these data centres are requiring huge amount of


[00:09:30] electricity usages on a daily basis. So you need to find locations that could support that, for example, you have to have a development that is on the trunk line, or the electricity line or power


[00:09:40] station that is able to support the data center development. Now having a lot of network connectivity, and Hong Kong is a good place, because its climate is relatively stable. So you


[00:09:50] don’t have really substantial typhoons that could tore down these electrical lines of buildings, though there is still risk out there. But we also don’t


[00:10:00] have the risk of earthquakes, such as Japan, such as some parts of Taiwan and places like that. So I think


[00:10:10] another thing of Hong Kong really that we talked about, and the Hong Kong data centre landscape is data protection, which is a lot of people are concerning, because the


[00:10:20] personal data ordinance, which is issued by the Hong Kong government protects personal data. And there’s a lot of controversy surrounding it because of the new NSL


[00:10:30] that’s coming in. But, this is still really, really attractive because of whether whatever happens, data is always going to be important, especially in a populated area,


[00:10:40] like South China, Hong Kong, Greater Bay Area. So I think it’s definitely, in terms of geographical region wise, [00:10:50] currently, I think Tseung Kwan O has a really good foundation for data centres because of its strong existing infrastructure.


[00:11:00] But you can look at emerging locations like Lok Ma Chau, Tuen Mun, that are actually gained attraction in terms of infrastructure building into the catering


[00:11:10] these data centres. So these will progressively be issued out by the government in terms of when these infrastructure could be built.


[00:11:18] Darren Wong: [00:11:18] I see. That’s very informative, by the way,

[00:11:18]Darren Wong:[00:11:18]我明白了。順便說一句,這信息量很大,

[00:11:20] thank you so much, because you cover a lot of ground: what’s most important about data centre, and why is there, and why isn’t there. So we talked about this before.


[00:11:30] Singapore and Guangzhou are very popular right now, where data centre type of assets, right? What’s the overall landscape in Asia? And how is Hong Kong positioned?


[00:11:40] And at the same time, who are the major players globally in the region?


[00:11:46] Anthony Wong: [00:11:46] Yeah, for sure. I think, to


[00:11:50] answer the global players first, you have Equinix, Global Switch, these are really, really large global companies. In Hong

[00:11:50]首先回答全球玩家,你有Econoks,global Switch,這些都是非常非常大的全球性公司。在香港

[00:12:00] Kong, you have Sunevision, which is owned by Sun Hung Kai, I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, but this Sunevision is a big


[00:12:10] data centre operator that supports a lot of high tech IOT stuff in Hong Kong. So these are the local market periods. You have


[00:12:20] Grand Ming as well, which is also a semi local market player. Hong Kong is well positioned geographically, because it’s close to


[00:12:30] China. And China requires a lot of, for example, international data transporting hub, and Hong Kong can act as an intermediary, just like a financial hub, because


[00:12:40] data in the future is going to worth a lot of money as well. So Hong Kong is geographically advantageous. But yes, it is competing with Singapore, as you talked about.


[00:12:50] Singapore is the gateway to Southeast Asia. And it has some advantages: robust data privacy regulation, arguably stronger than Hong Kong.


[00:13:00] But Hong Kong does have that geographical advantage. Singapore in some way does edge Hong Kong a little bit in terms of the internet speed,


[00:13:10] because they have existing a little more robust infrastructure. And also, Singapore has more lenient


[00:13:20] land supply towards the sector. So they’re more willing for the market players to bring in more investment, because they’re all given a lot of land. I think a


[00:13:30] shortage of land supply in Hong Kong can be a problem, and has been a problem in the past. But Hong Kong government and various other consulting agencies are foreseeing


[00:13:40] a new document issuing, you have heard about in the policy address budget report yesterday, that industrial revitalization 2.0, that is going to be


[00:13:50] a positive factor in terms of issuing more land for industrial and high tech and for these startups to prosper. So, yes, we are


[00:14:00] in a tricky platform. But I think once these conflicts, such as the US trade war, COVID,


[00:14:10] and everything settles down, I think Hong Kong will emerge even stronger because of the geographical location. And the existing strong infrastructure, as we mentioned about the


[00:14:20] electricity supply, the amount of human capital that can support this kind of industry.


[00:14:29] Darren Wong: [00:14:29] I see. That’s

[00:14:29]Darren Wong:[00:14:29]我明白了。那是

[00:14:30] interesting thinking about as grand scheme of thing, the geographical location, not only financial, it seems like even for the data side, the industrial side, it still have a


[00:14:40] benefit of it. And then I was planning to ask you more about the Guangzhou and Hong Kong relationship in terms of the data centre side. Would you mind to have some opinion on that?


[00:14:51] [00:14:50] Anthony Wong: [00:14:51] So Guangzhou and Hong Kong? Yeah, for sure. So, Hong Kong currently, in the north of Hong Kong, if you go through the


[00:15:00] border between Hong Kong and Shenzhen, there’s a place called Lok Ma Chau. So, not much always close to Hong Kong and Mainland China border, which is


[00:15:10] desirable for tech companies just across the border like Tencent, Baidu, Huawei, DJI, which is drone company. So there’s currently proposed 87


[00:15:20] hector of Hong Kong Shenzhen innovation and technology park at Lok Ma Chau, specifically catered towards R&D and technology, and startup incubators. So this kind of development will


[00:15:30] likely push even greater demand for data centres because of technology companies that are able to leverage upon Hong


[00:15:40] Kong because Tencent, we still don’t have a really popular usage of alipay and WeChat Pay in Hong Kong, we’re still relying on HSBC payme, right?


[00:15:50] So, when I was working in China, all these financial payment platforms, almost no one uses


[00:16:00] cash anymore. If you even go to rural areas, everyone except WeChat Pay, so you can tell how much of that financial data is really valuable and how much in relation back to data centres,


[00:16:10] how much that is indeed in need. And I would say another place in Hong Kong, not bordering China is


[00:16:20] Tuen Mun. It is a very strategic location, the link between Chek Lap Kok and Tuen Mun that is supposed to be completed in 2020. This will create a lot of long term


[00:16:30] development opportunities, giving a lot more opportunities, long term growth, because it’s close to the airport, which is an International Airport. So


[00:16:40] anywhere of these transportation hubs like borders and places with strong trunk lines and safe places


[00:16:50] in terms of geographically safe, stable climate wise, it’s a good place, and Hong Kong is at the right place of having that geographical


[00:17:00] and infrastructure advantage.


[00:17:01] Darren Wong: [00:17:01] I see. So what are typical yield on data centre compared to traditional industrial building? And how long the lease contract and

[00:17:01]Darren Wong:[00:17:01]我明白了。那麼,與傳統工業建築相比,資料中心的典型收益率是多少?租賃合同和

[00:17:10] operators are typical for? Lastly, what’s the trend over on the demand for data centre in those regard? And do you think that the next 5 to 10 years,


[00:17:20] it’s going to be good? What would you think of that?


[00:17:24] Anthony Wong: [00:17:24] Yeah, so the yield of the data centre is it’s about

[00:17:24]Anthony Wong:[00:17:24]是的,所以資料中心的收益是

[00:17:30] traditionally, it’s been about three 3.5%. It’s approaching 4%, because rents are really leveraging itself, which the yield is actually higher than


[00:17:40] grade A offices in Hong Kong, which is about a high 2%. So it makes an attractive investment, because we can have greater returns and


[00:17:50] typically more stable yields. Because usually, these contracts of the data centres, the leases range from 8 to 10 years or more, because you


[00:18:00] have really expensive equipment being shipped into these sites, right? So these racks, and usually these leases are longer because you want to protect these equipment


[00:18:10] longer and able to operate longer in a specific location and move to a different location, and there might be a lot of problem as well. So usually typical


[00:18:20] tenants like to stay in a data center longer. So that creates more of a stable yield, not just high yield, stable but high yield. And rents have been progressively going up, for


[00:18:30] example, this year, year-on-year has already gone up 5 to 10%, and depending on which region, right? So it is exciting. To answer where is the demand or where is the future trend going? There’s a lot of trend that is propelling the sector. And when you look at the COVID induced remote office solutions, and cloud computing, a lot of companies are willing for the employee to work from home or


[00:18:40] on


[00:18:50] a rotational basis. I think Hong


[00:19:00] Kong, work from home is not going to be as impacted. For example, that notion is not going to come back. But for example.


[00:19:10] Places like San Francisco, which is tech, and in some places, you’re gonna drive an hour to your office. In Hong Kong, transportation still really convenient. So remote


[00:19:20] solutions in other areas that requires more working, transporting time will be really, really useful.


[00:19:30] As we talked about the MNC corporates and these high tech companies will obviously be at the forefront of


[00:19:40] driving this data centre use because of their data data demand. Another thing is online and retail e-commerce that’s been going on in 5 to


[00:19:50] 20 years almost, since Amazon came in and I think consumer demand is increasing and shifting towards online shopping. And retail should invest in online shopping


[00:20:00] platforms, and enhancing, for example, different distribution strategies. And these kind of online shopping requires a lot of


[00:20:10] data use as well. And data centre creates a really kind of roadmap for these different online shops can, as an intermediary, to give information for


[00:20:20] consumers and the owners themselves. And last but most, I think, data centre, it is emerging. But even further than


[00:20:30] that, there has to be more of a green and sustainable data centre development coming into play. As you know, data centre, as we talked


[00:20:40] about previously, data centres is really energy intensive. It provides a lot of power, and it consume a lot of energy. So


[00:20:50] the large operators, actually right now, like international operators, like Equinix, Equinix, has actually adopted renewable practice by using


[00:21:00] a lot of their electricity supply from renewable energies like solar power, wind power. They actually committed and a lot of companies will be


[00:21:10] following that, especially with the ESG and the post-COVID trend of environmental awareness, these companies are actually trying to achieve the 100%


[00:21:20] efficiency in terms of renewable energy. On top of that, you have a really great policy platform, such as the UN 2030


[00:21:30] sustainable agenda, ESG guidelines, as we talked about, which will even push these companies to go for renewable energy that is sustaining data centres. So I see


[00:21:40] this as a future pathway and how data centre is developed.


[00:21:44] Darren Wong: [00:21:44] And that’s very, very good. I think that’s a very good way to

[00:21:44]Darren Wong:[00:21:44]非常非常好。我覺得這是個很好的方法

[00:21:50] summarise too. There’s so many questions popping up in my head right away, but I’ll leave it for asking you on your profile and for Denzity profile and everything and more and more. And then so for people who might


[00:22:00] want to know more about this segment and the previous episode of research and so on, what are couple ways that people can find you, know more about you and your work?


[00:22:09] Anthony Wong: [00:22:09] Yeah,


[00:22:10] for sure. So, we have published a data centre report in April so even go on google and type in data centre, future landscape data centre


[00:22:20] specifically and you type it in and type in Colliers International. We actually did a 14-page report specifically analysing locally based in Hong Kong, where to invest in data


[00:22:30] centre. We have a strong research and evaluation team, if you’re more interested and have investment thoughts or just curious about this


[00:22:40] sector, feel free to just take a look at the document or reach me out, or reach our company, some of the representative. But my email is


[00:22:50] Make use of those reports and give you a perspective on where our data centres moving towards. And then we give a lot of insights, how not only Hong Kong itself and how our


[00:23:00] international forces like we talked about Singapore, how are we competing with our competitors? So, do feel free to reach out via my email address


[00:23:10] or take a look at our reports.

[00:23:10] 或者看看我們的報告。

[00:23:13] Darren Wong: [00:23:13] That’s great. Obviously, as I said before, I’ll have everything in the show notes. And I want to say thank you so much. Thanks for sharing

[00:23:13]Darren Wong:[00:23:13]太好了。很明顯,就像我之前說的,我會把所有的東西都寫在節目筆記裏。我非常感謝你。謝謝分享

[00:23:20] with us. And then I, even myself personally, I learned a lot through your sharing. And then hopefully, you can come back for round two, because, just alone, I’m sure if I come to the next


[00:23:30] segment, let’s say, in the future maybe retail or office or anything big changes, your one of the first person I’ll talk to see, hey, Anthony, just come on board, round two again. So thanks


[00:23:40] a lot for your time and effort. Because it’s something that like I care about is that people know more about what’s going on, and niche market that data centre, industrial, different sections of it,


[00:23:50] too. We can cover that in the future. So thanks a lot again.


[00:23:52] Anthony Wong: [00:23:52] Yeah, for sure. It’s my pleasure. This sector is changing quite a lot. So for sure, the next time we chat about it, we’re going to see new


[00:24:00] exciting things coming in, for example, the transaction by TikTok, yesterday, it was quite exciting. So it’s a very exciting topic to talk about. And thanks for having me here. For sure.


[00:24:09] Darren Wong: [00:24:09] Okay,

[00:24:09]Darren Wong:[00:24:09]好的,

[00:24:10] thank you. See you next time, then. Thank you.


[00:24:12] Anthony Wong: [00:24:12] Yeah, for sure, have a good one. Take care. Bye bye.


[00:24:14] Darren Wong: [00:24:14] Bye.

[00:24:14]Darren Wong:[00:24:14]再見。

Market Updates 未分類

Denzity Insights: Real Estate Research Like A Pro With Anthony Wong

Real Estate Research Like A Pro With Anthony Wong

Conducting proper research can be key to a successful real estate investment as it has a huge role to play in several ways. That’s why it is important to know where and how to get the correct information since data is often inaccessible to many. Therefore, we decided to cover this topic with Anthony Wong, a real estate research expert.

  • Methods & sources that investors should leverage
  • The process of assessing the different type of projects
  • When conducting research in emerging market

▶ Connect with Anthony:


▶ Source & Supporting:


Colliers International:

Real Capital Analytics:

Buildings Department:

Data Centre: A data centre is an enclosed space where everything related to data is stored and handled inside mass number of computers, devices through many servers and networks.

APR: APR or annual percentage rate is the percentage of the amount that the borrower needs to pay to the lender per year.

▶ Disclaimer:

This disclaimer informs readers/audience that the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the text/video belong solely to the author & participant, and not necessarily to the participant’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual. 

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

This might be painfully obvious – Please note the following legal conditions:

Denzity owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of Denzity’s video programs and publications (collectively referred to as “Denzity Materials”, with all rights reserved and its right of publicity.

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Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!


Anthony Wong_ep24

[00:00:00] [00:00:00] Darren Wong: [00:00:00] Well, Anthony, welcome to the show.

[00:00:00][00:00]Darren Wong:[00:00:00]好吧,安東尼,歡迎收看節目。

[00:00:04]Anthony Wong: [00:00:04] Hi, it’s a pleasure to be here.


[00:00:06] Darren Wong: [00:00:06] Yeah. So, I think we met a couple months ago

[00:00:06]Darren Wong:[00:00:06]是的。我想我們幾個月前見過面

[00:00:10] through our friend Gary from a RealInflo. And then I remember when we talked about having the show, and then your background is very good


[00:00:20] because our show is about helping audiences to learn about how to make better judgement, and better-informed decisions when it comes to real estate investing. So, if someone from your background have


[00:00:30] the knowledge professionally, and have a very broad view of different location, how to think about investment is something that I’m really happy that you’re here to share with everyone here.


[00:00:40] [00:00:40] Anthony Wong: [00:00:40] Yeah, certainly. I mean, it’s a pleasure, get to know to Gary, who actually worked in my company before he came in and did a little


[00:00:50] presentation and modelling about his business line, RealInflo. If you haven’t checked out it, it’s a real estate platform, basically an extract of different real estate


[00:01:00] information, combining every data platform into one. Yeah, to start off with I’ve given introduction of myself. I’m Anthony Wong. I’m currently a research


[00:01:10] manager at Colliers International. My education is that I have a master’s degree in real estate development. And previously, I’ve worked in China, and US


[00:01:20] and now in Hong Kong. And I’ve worked in developers, which is client side and the consultancy side. I’ve also worked in several smaller startup side projects


[00:01:30] previously, when I was interning during my university. So, for my current role, my responsibilities include writing research reports, managing


[00:01:40] database, as well as supporting a local team to execute client projects. So, every single quarter, as you know, there’s four quarters a year, and we have to produce


[00:01:50] four reports per year, including retail, industrial, office and capital markets. So, one of the more interesting projects, which we’ll talk in a later


[00:02:00] episode is that data centre, we’ve recently published a research radar report on data centre market in Hong Kong, about smart technology, IOTs,


[00:02:10] and how that is driving demand of higher data usage and what kind of sectors is changing in the upcoming years because it is gaining a lot attraction. And


[00:02:20] we’ll talk more about that in terms of industrial conversion, development, acquisition in the later chapter. But I’m happy to talk about my experience background. And now go back to you, Darren.


[00:02:30] [00:02:30] Darren Wong: [00:02:30] Yeah, well, thanks for sharing because, I think when we prepping the show, and then you talked about we start with having one episode about how to do a better research, how

[00:02:30][00:02:30]Darren Wong:[00:02:30]是的,謝謝你的分享,因為,我想當我們準備節目的時候,你說我們從一集開始講如何做更好的研究,怎麼做

[00:02:40] to understand about investing overseas or locally. And then you mentioned data centre, where same time is that a lot of my friends are looking to data centre to invest or look into how to


[00:02:50] restructure it, which that’s why we dedicated for two different episodes for this. So, let’s start with the research side, because I think the information is interesting. So, for the


[00:03:00] audience who might not be familiar, would you mind explaining what a real estate researcher does? And what a typical day would be?


[00:03:07] Anthony Wong: [00:03:07] Yeah, for sure. I mean, in real estate

[00:03:07] Anthony Wong: [00:03:07]當然可以。我是說,在房地產領域

[00:03:10] research, you really get touch upon in different areas of things, not only just in real estate, you have to understand economics, stock market,


[00:03:20] interest rates, all kinds of stuff. So, you have to be really, really aware of what’s happening in the economy, and everywhere, basically. So typically, I start off my day with reading

[00:03:20] 利率,各種各樣的東西。所以,你必須真正地,真正地意識到經濟中正在發生的事情,以及所有地方,基本上。所以我通常從閱讀開始我的一天

[00:03:30] a lot of market news, like Bloomberg, Routers, SCMP, HKEJ, or even local news like that, just to get a sense of how the economy is doing that


[00:03:40] day or that quarter or that month. And after just reading news off it, it really depends what kind of project I’m working on. For example, in the


[00:03:50] past quarter, we published four quarterly reports, if you haven’t checked out, go to our Colliers International website, and it has the four sectors indicating


[00:04:00] how the market is doing. So yes, the four core markets we talked about is office, retail, industrial and capital markets. For office, it’s really, for us,


[00:04:10] as a researcher, every single month, we have to go through monthly meetings without brokers to understand how the rental changes are doing,


[00:04:20] what are the tenancy arrangements, what the vacancy rates, who are moving in and out of these new leases. For example, in Central and core areas in the past couple of


[00:04:30] months, seeing a lot of changes because of the trade wars, the COVID-19, all that kind of market turbulence going on. So really keeping


[00:04:40] close intact with the brokers, with the market players is really important on our daily flow. In terms of retail side, yes, you have


[00:04:50] to get in close touch with the brokers, but not only that, you have to do a lot of self-research. So, for me recently, I published retail reports. We have to


[00:05:00] understand retail sales, we have to understand exports, imports, where are the sort of goods coming in, and how are the vacancy rates responding to


[00:05:10] that. And also understanding incoming travellers, visitor travellers demand, when you look at it, almost 70 to 80%, back then all the travellers are from Mainland China,


[00:05:20] so they buy a lot of luxury goods. But now the trends are changing, it’s more like necessities, supermarkets are doing really well. No longer luxurious goods are doing well in the market right now. So


[00:05:30] really being able to, and that’s why going back to the point reading market means understanding how the economy is going and reflected a research report. Industrial, as I talked about, it’s going through a


[00:05:40] lot of changes as well. As you know, as a lot of people do know the supplies really limited. It’s not as substantial as


[00:05:50] residential, where there’s a high demand, but industrial is going to go through a big change in terms of the higher demand for data centres, the higher demand for higher


[00:06:00] quality industrial buildings, and a better location in support of that. And lastly but not, capital markets. That used to be one of the largest revenues [00:06:10] stream and consultancies, really trying to find big buyers. I mean, you can buy a billion dollar, a


[00:06:20] billion-dollar transaction and be a broker, and in between, you can get a big commission and back, it gives the companies a big portion of revenue during good times.


[00:06:30] But in tougher times, it’s tougher. So, the capital markets right now we’re really trying to help them to find distressed assets. Selling, advising our capital markets team to


[00:06:40] advise the clients where to buy properties. Hotel sector is a good one, because hotel is really having really low APR rate. So, giving them a really


[00:06:50] good perspective and good direction in terms of how they deal with their clients and giving them a lot of resources is what I do on a daily basis. And I’m


[00:07:00] really happy to be part of the team and giving support our various brokers team.


[00:07:05] Darren Wong: [00:07:05] it sounds like a lot, a lot of reading and understanding. Because not only there you are being an

[00:07:05]Darren Wong:[00:07:05]聽起來有很多,很多閱讀和理解。因為你不僅在那裡

[00:07:10] economist, you’re being on the ground, talking to someone like broker in the forefront, and then you have to keep learning every single day. And not only real estate, right? Because real estate is a


[00:07:20] big, big sector, but then the ecosystem with stocks, equity, debt, there’s so many neurons that you have to juggle with. And obviously, like not all the audience


[00:07:30] had the luxury that they can sit down and learn about these things every single day. But then it seems like it’s good to have someone like you to weave out and say, “hey, let’s make something very simple, ABCD,


[00:07:40] how to do it,” and then maybe, in the future, you become a researcher, you can do a lot more of that. So, being in the professional firms, what are some sources of knowledge that you can access


[00:07:50] to, which the audience might not gain access? Or have a harder time to have those knowledges?


[00:07:57] Anthony Wong: [00:07:57] Yeah, for sure. I mean, as a researcher, we


[00:08:00] do you have access to certain amount of knowledge that the public don’t have. But actually, majority of the resources that we do get is actually free to the public, and


[00:08:10] just that the public are not aware of it. So, for example, besides our internal database, which we support our rentals


[00:08:20] and vacancy every single month, for our office grade A brokerage team, which we provide different kinds of data. Yes, that is really kind of hard, difficult to


[00:08:30] retrieve because we manage our in-house database. But on top of that, things like land supply, land tender sells, those are all available in the market, for example, in the


[00:08:40] lands apartment, you can go on the land sale section, and there’s different kinds of land tender documents, and you can look at different past bidders who bid at the land,


[00:08:50] and what are the sort of trajectory. For example, most recently, there’s a lot of Chinese buyers, as you know, China Mobile just purchased an industrial site in ShaTin, a couple more sites


[00:09:00] in Tuen Mun that various other Chinese companies. Understanding they’re not out there, but you just have to dig deeper into these websites. And


[00:09:10] another one is, if you have a piece of land, for example, investor, where do you go about to start up beside higher concern? Before you do due diligence, you can go on planning


[00:09:20] department about outline zoning plan portal, which kind of shows you what are the limitations, restrictions regarding that area, for example, building heights, for example,


[00:09:30] zoning, for example, how many GFP that’s allowed. Plot ratio, that’s a good one. Really, it’s really available out there, but it’s really finding the sources. Another


[00:09:40] resource and knowledge that I gained access to, which a lot of people have heard of, is Real Capital Analytics. And that’s a subscription platform we do. And it’s mainly in


[00:09:50] support of various valuation teams that we do have. And also capital markets team, for example, understanding what the recent transactions. What are the transactions that went over 4


[00:10:00] billion dollars, for example, and what kind of market we are going for that specific lump sum or what the client is requesting. Another free


[00:10:10] platform, RCA, obviously, the one I talked about requires a sign up and you got to pay for it. But another free platform, I would say it’s really looking at the


[00:10:20] rating evaluation department, which they have a popping market statistics. We have all kinds of resources out there that could show you the trajectory of the


[00:10:30] rental and capital value market flow. Another one is also the Buildings Department, if you want to look at the go-to-completion where the


[00:10:40] progress instead of going on site and actually check out what’s going on. Actually, buildings apartments show you what are the progress in the development by telling you


[00:10:50] what kind of structure phase they are in. So, I think really this be resourceful. A lot of information is for your benefit, and the government do a really good job in terms of maintaining it. It’s really going


[00:11:00] out there and find it and really have a strong, and maintain your own database, for example, what kind of sectors you’re going for, maintain it and have your own database in terms of going forward. I’m sure different


[00:11:10] consultancies have different database, of course, but generally, they should be consistent in terms of the objectives supporting their local teams or their investment.


[00:11:18] Darren Wong: [00:11:18] I see. I think

[00:11:18]Darren Wong:[00:11:18]我明白了。我想

[00:11:20] there’s a cool idea that was just in my head is that, in the end of this whole show, what we can do is to have some links, and some kind of guidance to people where they can find these data. And even the


[00:11:30] report you said just now about what you have issued recently, and so on, put them all on the show notes. The other cool idea, I mean, there are a lot of times


[00:11:40] because I used to be working in the real estate fund, and there are reports that we know where the reports are. But a lot of people, let’s say for the audience that might not be familiar real estate, just don’t know where to go. So, I think that


[00:11:50] even though having this kind of episode, pointing out, and then having those kinds of things in the show notes to tell people where they can get, is kind of useful. So just like what you said, there


[00:12:00] are a lot of different information and methods and sources, right? What kind of audience should leverage and then use it when it conducts market research analysis easily at the [00:12:10] moment?


[00:12:12] Anthony Wong: [00:12:12] Yeah, what I talked about leveraging is really about being resourceful. So what I talked about previously, besides some of the

[00:12:12]Anthony Wong:[00:12:12]是的,我所說的杠杆作用實際上是關於足智多謀。所以我之前說的,除了一些

[00:12:20] sources that I’ve mentioned previously, is really interacting closely with, as a researcher really, interacting closely with


[00:12:30] local brokers and consulting agents, and getting deeper insight in terms of, besides these data from this information, what is the story behind driving these data?


[00:12:40] For example, if the yields are coming down, or the capital values are going up, what is the reason behind it? Is it because


[00:12:50] buyers are withholding the asset price, at the same time the flexible lowering the rental prices? There’s all kinds of a trajectory that


[00:13:00] explained the underlying story behind those numbers. Really kind of doing both qualitative, which I talked about interacting with the people on ground, and


[00:13:10] quantitative, which is getting the information from the platform. And what kind of storyline and what kind of trajectory, what kind of POV you giving into


[00:13:20] your research reports, and your local brokers team and your local valuation team? And I think there’s a lot of specific indicators out there: GDP,


[00:13:30] employment market stock prices. These are great. But there’s got to be some relation back to the real estate market. What is the story telling?


[00:13:37] Darren Wong: [00:13:37] I see.

[00:13:37]Darren Wong:[00:13:37]我明白了。

[00:13:40] Would you mind explaining and providing a walkthrough on a process of different kinds of projects that you can start with, like you found on project new-built and second hand


[00:13:50] assets. Because I think it’d be good idea to give people a framework and say, hey, if you’re looking for deployment project, this is the framework pretty easily how to find resources and maybe new built and see


[00:14:00] second hand assets.


[00:14:02] Anthony Wong: [00:14:02] Yeah, I think they’re quite different in terms of new development,

[00:14:02]Anthony Wong:[00:14:02]是的,我認為他們在新的發展方面是完全不同的,

[00:14:10] development project, new buildings, secondhand asset. They’re managed by different investors, different operators, sometimes in private equity they you do it all.


[00:14:20] But I think development project, I think you start off with, well, I’m a researcher myself, so I’m going to give you a researcher POV, not from a developer


[00:14:30] view. So, as I talked about, really go through the lands department seeing one of the attendant notices by the lands that have been issued by the government right now.


[00:14:40] Being aware of the policy address, the budget reports, sometimes they talk about, oh, we are aiming, for example, this year, we’re aiming for


[00:14:50] 80,000 residential units that’s being injected into the market. And obviously, realistic speaking, how much of that is actually being injected, how much of a goal, so you can analyse


[00:15:00] that in the past historical performance and see, okay, just because the government said 90,000, actually, in the past, there’s only half that’s been issued for it because of different restrictions


[00:15:10] and time delays and development projects. So, understanding a market from these public platforms, I think newbuilt same as development


[00:15:20] project, look at the buildings department, look at the construction timeline, we, a lot of consulting firms manage their own


[00:15:30] supply pipeline. So, when it will see when are the buildings being completed. That’s really, really important. And see when is a timing coming in, where’s


[00:15:40] the liquidity going? I think, in terms of second-hand asset, that ranges quite a lot. It’s really about the


[00:15:50] investment side, and the investment side of second-hand asset, is really about knowing your market links. For example, in the capital markets team, it’s really


[00:16:00] knowing in depth connections that could lead you to some lucrative transactions. And as a researcher, we just have to analyse what are the great


[00:16:10] transactions in the past, and how that reflects the value of that specific client is buying. So, we give as much information as we


[00:16:20] can in the second-hand asset market and let them decide where are the good project to go for some transaction?


[00:16:28] Darren Wong: [00:16:28] I guess [00:16:30] that’s pretty informative as people framework how to think about it. So, when we met up a couple months ago, and I think that we talked about your

[00:16:28]Darren Wong:[00:16:28]我想[00:16:30]在人們如何思考的框架下,這是一個相當豐富的資訊。所以,幾個月前我們見面的時候,我想我們討論過你

[00:16:40] experience in Greater Bay Area when you are researching in the area, and focusing on that, and I think it’s a great idea to use that as a use case to talk about how to conduct research in the


[00:16:50] emerging markets because a lot of audience might be interested in Malaysia asset b&m asset, and obviously, you’re more in the Greater Bay Area. So I want to talk about your experience with that.


[00:17:00] How is the experience with conducting research in emerging market like the Greater Bay Area? How does that process, is it different than having developed area, is it really hard to find information, many more?


[00:17:11] [00:17:10] Anthony Wong: [00:17:11] Yeah, for sure. I mean, I was in China about a year or so. And really on the south side of China, which is the Greater Bay Area, which they call it.


[00:17:20] So these cities included two core cities and nine other second tier cities. The two core, obviously, Shenzhen and Guangzhou, which my offices were based at


[00:17:30] when I was conducting research and advisory business there from another consulting firm. I think it’s a lot different doing research and doing development in China,


[00:17:40] because in the sense that as a researcher, marketing transparency is not as great as Hong Kong. For example, maturity of real estate market information is really, really difficult to retrieve.


[00:17:50] There’s no united platform, as I talked about things like EPRC, which shows all the transaction for not that expensive


[00:18:00] mountain subscription fee, or lands apartment or buildings department where you can just go directly and get the information. And so I think transparency is really a one big thing. They


[00:18:10] do have a platform called CREIS, which is the China Real Estate Intelligence System. And that is a hefty heavy price subscription allowing real estate


[00:18:20] petitioners to gain access to, for example, land values, residential transaction. But again, the downside is that how much of that data is accurate in China, because


[00:18:30] sometimes data has always been something that we as a researcher is concerned about. So, doing real estate research, compared


[00:18:40] to Hong Kong, takes a lot more time in the sense that we have to, instead of just relying on the data, sometimes you have to go on site and verify, is this project completed, and is this


[00:18:50] development actually has that much of a tendency in terms of vacancy. So when I was working and travelling between two cities and


[00:19:00] Shenzhen, give you an example. My team members and I have to visit a lot of undeveloped office sites. For example, in Guangzhou and the south side, there’s a


[00:19:10] second tier city called Foshan, luckily, we had a company car so we can go there, but we have to actually visit these retail sites and see


[00:19:20] what other vacancies going on there. And we have to talk to local brokers to understand what are the situation that’s been going on in the market in terms of retail,

[00:19:20] 那裡還有什麼空缺。我們必須和當地的經紀人談談,瞭解零售市場的情况,

[00:19:30] walking through different models and analysing the guesstimation of what the vacancy rates are because it’s hard to really, really retrieve those data in


[00:19:40] China. So, I think doing research in China requires a lot of time, patience, years of experience, being in the market


[00:19:50] and really swimming along it and having deeper connections with the local investors. When you thought about doing China, relationships number one really important.


[00:20:00] So these clean market players, they give you a lot of insights in terms of making the job a lot easier.


[00:20:06] Darren Wong: [00:20:06] I feel like we should ask Gary just to find the data for us,

[00:20:06]Darren Wong:[00:20:06]我覺得我們應該讓Gary幫我們找到數據,

[00:20:10] because there is so much hassle. And then I think there’s similar stories that when people told me about, when a couple years ago, half a half a decade ago, they


[00:20:20] went to Vietnam or Malaysia, same thing is that like, they have a very, very hard time. And obviously, right now because the demand is so high, they start building the whole infrastructure of data and information. But before that was


[00:20:30] really that, even you want to find out what’s going on, you got to be fly all the way there, be on the ground, you have to have two hours car ride, bumpy car ride, really measure


[00:20:40] every single thing to know what the hell is going on, because the data wasn’t there. So I think these are things that like office for emerging market, that’s the tricky part. And then which comes to


[00:20:50] the next question. What are some tips and insight you will share with the audience, especially when it comes to locally and abroad? Or in this case, emerging markets when the data is not as available?


[00:21:02] [00:21:00] Anthony Wong: [00:21:02] Yeah, I have worked in China, wouldn’t say a long time, and Hong Kong, a little more familiar with. I would say,

[00:21:02] [00:21:00] Anthony Wong: [00:21:02]對,再熟悉一點,我就不會在香港工作了。我會說,

[00:21:10] doing good research is about do what you can, honestly. Be open minded and resourceful, and talk to as many people, so if you want to go to a different


[00:21:20] country to do your investment, not just only ask a couple brokers, is this a good site to invest or are you took a plane trip there, and then


[00:21:30] “Oh, I like this place, that seems like a good vacation place”? But also really knowing the people, real estate is about community. So knowing what kind of location that


[00:21:40] you’re intended to invest? What kind of community residents that gives you the sense of safety, sense of good education, good school boundaries? These are really, really important. And really make use of


[00:21:50] the resources that is provided by the local government. And Hong Kong, we’re really privileged to have a lot of resources that is issued out there. For emerging market, not so much, so


[00:22:00] sometimes you might have to spend a little more time, a little more money, and a little more liquidity in terms of knowing the market or even worse. But the upside is that there’s more gains on


[00:22:10] top of saturated market like Hong Kong. Second of all, be really analytical and insightful. How to spot trends, as I talked about really read a


[00:22:20] lot of market news. Sometimes this news might give you a really good suspense, but how much is that actually reflecting the market, right? So really be


[00:22:30] critical in terms of some of news outlets. And also, be both quantitative and qualitative. Don’t just rely on data, rely on talking to different people and


[00:22:40] understanding where the sources are coming. At the end of the day, you really start off real estate. Because real estate, everything


[00:22:50] is about location, right? So really understanding the locational context of it, from transportation, to building


[00:23:00] highways, to geopolitical stability, to Macro, all kind of stuff. I think these are all really essential in terms of investing elsewhere in a place that you’re not


[00:23:10] familiar with, for example, in emerging markets.


[00:23:12] Darren Wong: [00:23:12] I think there’s a very good takeaway, because that’s something it’s easier said than done. It is a lot of homework, but you’ve got to do it because you’re

[00:23:12]Darren Wong:[00:23:12]我認為有一個非常好的外賣,因為這是說起來容易做起來難的事情。工作太多了,但你必須做,因為你

[00:23:20] putting years of savings into something that you might not get return or get a good return that is expected until years afterward. So before we jump into the


[00:23:30] data centre topic for the audience, maybe it just ends right here. How would they return to you to find out more about your work and yourself?


[00:23:40] [00:23:39] Anthony Wong: [00:23:39] Yeah, for sure. So really, our work is really publicly available. You know, a lot of people don’t make use of it. We do a lot of consulting projects that you guys are


[00:23:50] more welcome to check it out. It’s in the Colliers International website. And you go on, there’s a research tab that you click on research. And inside, there’s different sectors and you select


[00:24:00] whatever region that you want to invest in, for example, you want to go with Malaysia, we have Malaysian quarterly reports that shows four or five different sectors office, industrial, retail, residential,


[00:24:10] capital markets that we publish reports consistently. So anyone who’s interested in the market, make use of the resource that we produce, because we want to help clients, we want to develop client relationships to


[00:24:20] go there. But honestly, we are really personal. So if you want to reach out to me personally, add me on LinkedIn, Anthony Wong. I’ve been called Colliers


[00:24:30] International, and you can find me there or reach out to my email via I’m always able to help you find real estate


[00:24:40] solutions or giving you just basic guidance in terms of career path, you want to go into the real estate or real estate research.


[00:24:47] Darren Wong: [00:24:47] Yeah, obviously I’ll ensure all the links we

[00:24:47]Darren Wong:[00:24:47]是的,顯然我會確保我們所有的連結

[00:24:50] said before, the links for different public information and obviously Colliers, for example, the information you have, the report you have and the contact information. So for the people who are


[00:25:00] interested to learn more about data centre, we are going to have a nice episode coming up within less than a week time, and then yeah, that’s it.


[00:25:07] Anthony Wong: [00:25:07] I’m looking


[00:25:10] forward to it.


[00:25:10] Darren Wong: [00:25:10] Yeah, for sure.

[00:25:10]Darren Wong:[00:25:10]是的,當然。

Market Updates 未分類

South Korean Real Estate For Beginners With Leo Wong

South Korean Real Estate For Beginners With Leo Wong

There are a lot of talks with the South Korea real estate market. We want to give an introductory video to allow overseas investors to know about the South Korea real estate market and discover where the opportunities are.

▶ Connect with the guest

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▶ Transcript

Darren Wong: Hey, Leo, thanks for coming in.

Leo: Hey, hi, Darren, thank you for inviting me.

Darren Wong: Would you mind telling the audience about yourself?

Leo: My name is Leo Wong and I represent Fonto real estate. We are a firm of mostly  development projects in many different places around the world. Currently, we are most concentrated in San Francisco, the Bay Area in the United States. And also in South Korea. We already have some completed projects in those cities, and we’re looking to expand soon, just probably waiting for the economic situation to improve a bit. And then we’ll get ready and push out our products.

Darren Wong: I see. Yeah, it’s interesting because when I talk to your team, I really feel that it’s good that you guys cover different regions, and today we focus on South Korea, because a lot of people always tell me, “Hey, I want to invest in different places in Asia.” And myself, I’m not very familiar with South Korea so it’s good to have someone like you tell the audience and myself more about it. So for them and myself who might not understand the regions of South Korea, would you mind giving a brief introduction and description of how the city’s made up? And then what are a few areas that overseas investors tend to invest in? Lastly, what is the opportunity in terms of a macro point of view in the next few years?

Leo: Okay, sure. Let me kind of give a macro picture of the whole country first and then we’ll drill into Seoul, which is the major attention. First, administratively, South Korea has one special city, which is Seoul, and one special self governance city which is Sejong, and six metropolitan cities, Busan, Incheon, Daegu, Dajeon, Ulsan and Gwangju, and except these eight major cities, all lands are divided into a total of nine provinces called Bo, including one special autonomous province, that’s Jeju Island. And all these cities and toll on the same administrative regions. So if you’re familiar with the system in Japan, for example, then it’s pretty similar. So they have Philly, special cities, and then they have other prefectures. Okay. So, if we drill into Seoul now, especially, then, let me explain some of the major areas. So there are three major business districts within Seoul. The central business district, there’s the hongyun area, and then the second one is called Gangnam district, okay, oh, we call it Gangnam. And then the third one is called Yeouido business district. So, basically, just for ease of references, we call the first one CBD to central business district and then the second one is GBD, G for Gangnam and end of third this YDP which is the Yeong-deungpo. And these three main business district in Seoul houses about about 67% of the city’s largest office buildings. And while the first one, CBD tends to have a mixture of tenants such as news agencies, financial institutions and government agencies GBD tends to have more tenants from the IT sector and YDP tends to have more tenants from the financial industries, because it also  houses the KRX which is the Korean Stock Exchange. And one thing to note is that CBD and GBD are not just business districts, but they are also very famous for shopping, okay, CBD is within walking distance from Myeongdong, which has a lot of mainstream brands and GBD also has a lot of luxurious brands, flagships of course. And the second thing about the geographic features of Seoul is that it is divided in half by the Han River, okay. The local people called the area on the north shore of the river, Gangbuk. So, gang is the river in pok east north, okay. And area south of the Han River is Gangnam. So in this case, the word Gangnam is used differently. The first one is just referring to the GBD. In the second use is referring to the whole area south of the Han River. So in the 70s 1970s, over about 75% of Seouls population live in Gangbuk and Gangnam was at that time mostly farmland, and the government wish to diversify the population and to also cool down the Gangbuk real estate prices as they’re already tons of demands at that time on the lands of Gangbuk. The government limits new constructions in Gangbuk, starting in 1972, and encourages the development in Gangnam. So as a result, Gangnam’s real estate prices have started to skyrocket. And as a 2020 Gangnam has become the richest neighborhood not only in Seoul, but in entire South Korea. So it’s pretty ironic, you know, Gangnam was already developed to cool down Gangbuk. And now Gangnam becomes very expensive by his own right. And also Seoul has several satellite cities, just like most of the really big cities in the world, and the surrounding regions, okay including those satellite cities, is what we call Sudogwon. Collectively, it means the capital area in Korea, and some of the more well known satellite cities are Incheon,  Seongnam and Suwon. In properly some people already notice that the airport we use for to travel to Seoul is in Incheon.

Leo: Yeah, and let me also give some background about macroeconomics. Now, for Korea it has a severe aging populations just similar to the neighboring countries like Japan and in other developed countries like Germany or like France, okay. So, the fertility rate is continuously decreasing and the government expected in 2029, the population growth rate is expected to turn negative, the life expectancy has been steadily increasing so, people are getting older okay, and probably due to the improving medicine. So, in terms of the overall demographic structure it has been changing and expected to affect the country’s economy in the next decade. The population age 65 or above is expected to exceed 20% of the total population by 2025. And this age group, the population of this age group is expected to exceed 40% by 2051. So there’s really a large proportion of the whole population. So, in this case, the supply of labor will decrease because a lot of people are already really old and already retired and people will start saving more money for retirement, okay. So, in the simplest sense, more savings means less consumption, okay. And also according to the statistical department, the average number of household members is expected to decrease from about 2.5 persons in 2017 to about 2 in 2047. So, this decrease means that as time goes on, there will be more single person households. And as of now, many of the single person household members are in their 20s or 30s. But in the long run, they will become older. So, this decrease in single person households is likely to affect consumption patterns. And finally, I think another important factor to consider is the populations concentration in Seoul. While Seouls total land area is just about like 0.6% of the entire country, around 20% of the country’s population reside in Seoul. So urbanization is very severe, and it is expected to further accelerate while the population especially young people is flowing into capital areas, such as Seoul and the capital city, the metropolitan area, including the satellite cities, the population in non capital areas has been steadily decreasing over the past decades. And this occurs to some metropolitan cities as well, such as Busan. And they’re already young people flowing out of those big cities other than Seoul.

Leo: So let me talk about some of the promising area in businesses. Because of the increase in single person households that I just mentioned, the online purchase market is expanding, and more and more items are available online. In the past few years, the online food shopping has been a hit in South Korea, to store fruits, meat and vegetable, in fresh state a lot of more warehouses are in demand and were built. The new supply of warehouses in the capital city area was more than 2 million square meters in 2019. And difficult was about two times of the new supply in the year 2016/2017. So this trend is expected to only accelerate in the next few years, because as we are now facing COVID-19, more customers are turning to online malls to do their shoppings online.

Darren Wong: That’s very informative, because even from your explanation, I can see a lot of detail of what it’s going to become in a long term prospect. So you know, you mentioned a lot of different areas, a lot different things, do you think some of those areas are overrated for foreign investors?

Leo: I think from our perspective, we look at some of the really important sectors of whether the demand or the supply of an area are determined. And let me try to start from the beginning. To give the short answer first, is that I think currently Jeju islands is quite overrated. So in general, the most important determining factor of the real estate prices, at least in South Korea is the availability of jobs. For example, in South Chungcheong province,  Cheonan’s their house prices has been on the rise in the past decade because it is where the SK Hynix plants are built. So on the other hand, in the same province in a very similar locality,  Gongju and Buyeo, they’re very famous for cultural Heritage’s. So for example, they have much more tourists, but they have much less jobs. So in our understanding the property prices has risen much less. So we believe this fact that the availability of jobs in the region is the probably the most important determining factor for the real estate prices. So if there are more jobs, except of course, like, you know, jobs related to tourism, then there would be more people and more demands, and so the housing prices would rise. And in this perspective, Seoul has overwhelmingly more jobs than in any other areas in South Korea. And within Seoul itself, the GBD the Gangnam district has about 1.5 million white collar jobs. And the combined population in Busan and Daegu, the two major metropolitan cities in South Korea is 5 million. So from this, we see that Seoul real estate prices, especially in Gangnam, is bound to keep rising, even if the government has introduced a series of regulation in the past few years to inhibit Gangnams housing price rise, it is inevitable that the region’s real estate prices will keep rising. So we think that Seoul’s real estate prices are not overrated now and it’s a right decision to invest in the city, especially this Gangnam region with a strong fundamental support. And in contrast, Jeju Island is very heavily reliant on tourist industry in also Chinese capitals. And as we see in the recent months, the unstable relationship between the Chinese government and South Korean government and also COVID-19, the tourists from China and also Chinese capital have been decreasing in the past two years. So, Jeju Island also does not have a lot of white collar jobs or industrial jobs that could attract people to relocate to Jeju. So the real estate prices in Jeju Island has decreased in the past few years. And for this reason, the same reason we think that investing Jeju Island right now is not a good option. And also where in Seoul should investors explore other than the three city centers, we suggest investors to look at a information called the 2030 Seoul plan. And that is the urban master plan that Seoul Metropolitan Government announced in 2017. Okay, so from that plan, you can see that the government selected three city centers and also seven sub centers. And while the city centers already have a lot of jobs, we assume that in the seven sub centers and regional centers, jobs and residents will increase in the coming decades. So whether it’s a flat or small stakes for property, we believe that it’s profitable to invest in those areas, or at least the areas that have easy transportation connections with those areas. So we should pay attention to those places where jobs are about to increase. And we believe that if there are jobs, then there will be people and there will be demand for real estate.

Darren Wong: I see. But how would we suggest differently for investors that are either planning to sell to use or investment only?

Leo: I just mentioned before, the real estate market is rising especially in the hot areas that we just mentioned. The current South Korean government is strongly against individuals owning more than one residential unit. So they have introduced 18 new regulations since 2018. The same applies to non South Korean nationals purchasing residential real estate in Korea. So we strongly recommend not to buy more than one property or otherwise one will be subject to very high tax.

Darren Wong: I see. When it comes to tax, right, what kind of tax and how much would an oversea investor be taxed at?

Leo: As of now the overseas investors are subject to the same taxation as South Koreans, locals when it comes to owning properties. In other words, currently, there is no taxation that specifically bars foreigners from investing in South Korean real estate. There are about four, there are four major tax or levies to the government. The first one is a Stamp Duty, okay. And it could be up to USD $320, depending on the federal property, and the stamp duties come comparatively low compared to other countries. But there’s also another thing called the Acquisition tax, it ranges from 1% to 4% depending on the value of the property, okay, and also like its location. And there’s the third tax, which is called the Withholding tax, it ranges between 6% to 40% depending on the property value. This Withholding tax is very similar to property tax in other jurisdiction that you have to pay periodically, as long as you hold the property. And finally, there’s the Capital Gains tax. These capital gains tax is again, the nature is well known to most investors. Basically, it looks at the capital gain, that means the increase or appreciation in value between the time that you purchase the property and the value you sell the property and the difference would be the basis of the taxation.

Darren Wong: I see. How does COVID-19 impact the market and what are some opportunities investors should look at right now?

Leo: Due to COVID-19, as mentioned before, ecommerce is in more demand than ever. So there’s now more robust demand for logistics spaces, especially those with low temperatures to store vegetables. Another potential opportunity lies in smaller size offices. Due to COVID-19, some large scale companies reclassified their employees into smaller groups based on their residence and asks them to work at different offices for for the time being. And likewise, it is being that COVID-19 may be a stimulus for the decentralizing work scheme in the near future.

Darren Wong: I see. Like I think everything you said so far is so informative that even in my head, that picture is very clear on the opportunity. Beyond that, what are some tips and advice you would suggest to the audience? And is there anything they should be aware of when it comes to investing in South Korea’s real estate market?

Leo: I think we briefly talked about this. If one is to invest in residential property, then we should consider just investing in one property, rather than multiple properties because currently government’s letting high taxation upon those who own more than one property and also in Korea, the demand for hotel depends a lot on the number of Chinese tourists. This means that if the relationship between the People’s Republic of China in South Korea becomes more unstable then hospitality industry will get a large impact after the COVID-19 recovery, and of course, unless we see that the South Korean tourists market, the composition, changes to a much more touristy place from countries other than PRC otherwise then this is still a risk to hospitality investors.

Darren Wong: I see. You know, I have one more question because it’s something that my friend has asked me to ask you. It’s that, are there any hip places that a lot of younger crowds are willing to pay more rent for? In addition, where are a few places that a lot of more commercial activities are working in Seoul and that is worth looking into?

Leo: Well, in Seoul, you can classify the cities into different kinds of districts, namely the financial wealth district, hipstore districts, tourist education, and residential and two of the really popular so called hip places are Hongdae and Leetaewon, seems like early 2000s. But in the past decade that means from about 2010 to recently, it’s been undergoing refurbishment certification, so a lot of artists cafe and small size restaurants have moved out. Also in the past decade, Yeonnam-dong and Seongsu-dong has gained a lot of popularity among young people and they are quickly rising as hip places. Yeonnam-dong is located near Hongdae, the area has been a middle class residential district since the 70s. But instead of the high rise apartments, the area was mostly made up of about three storeys houses since the opening of Gyeongui Line the forest park nearby in 2016. The area went through a lot of commercialization, and several houses in Yeonnam-dong changed their usage in the past decade and became cafes and restaurants. Also, Seongsu-dong is located opposite to the GBD Gangnam business district across the Han River. So there’s a subway line and it takes around 20 minutes from Seongsu-dong to GBD. The area in Seongsu-dong used to be heavily industrial. We have a lot of small factories and workshops. But the artists and cafe owners from Hongdae started to move into this area, and they renovated the old factory size and turned them into from what’s crusty to rusty-interior design cafes and restaurants. And we contributed a lot to changing the overall atmosphere of these districts.

Darren Wong: It’s good. I mean, next time I’ll ask you which cafe to go to. It’s very informative. Thank you so much. Because I think, even for me you supplied some good photos and maps and everything to me. I’ll put everything in the show notes. And even during this video, we can go side by side with different stuff where people can see, trace it, and be like “Okay, this is what it looks like and what cities there.”  So, for people who are interested to look and talk to you more about South Korea’s real estate, how can they reach out to you and talk to you further?

Leo: I will leave my email address to you and they would be able to assess me directly. And that would primarily be the way we conduct communication between our staff and our potential customers.

Darren Wong: I get it. Okay, I’ll obviously put everything in the show notes. So I just want to say thank you so much for a very informative interview. And then hopefully next time you come in, you can tell us more about San Francisco, what’s going on over there.

Leo: Well, thank you very much.

Darren Wong: Thank you and have a good one, then.

Leo: You too.

Darren Wong: Bye.

Leo: Bye.

Market Updates 未分類

Denzity Insights: Emerging Property Markets In The United Kingdom With Gordon Franks

Emerging Property Markets In The United Kingdom With Gordon Franks

Connect with Gordon:

  • LinkedIn:
  • WeChat: LFSHKGordon 
  • Email: 

Emerging Property Markets In The United Kingdom With Gordon Franks

In the past, we had an episode covering the United Kingdom real estate market, focusing on London. Since many investors are interested in regions outside of London in the United Kingdom, we’ve decided to invite Gordon, a real estate agent and mortgage broker, to share his insights on those regions. We have covered topics such as:

  • The areas overseas investors tend to invest in the United Kingdom
  • The areas that are overrated or underrated
  • The market outlook
  • And more.



Lifestyle Brokers:

NOMA Regeneration:

HS Two Rail Link:

Stamp Duty: Stamp duty is a kind of tax that is imposed in the form of stamps on legal documents by the government while buying a property.

Capital Appreciation: Capital appreciation or capital gain is an increase in the value of any investment.

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

This might be painfully obvious – Please note the following legal conditions:

Denzity owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of Denzity’s video programs and publications (collectively referred to as “Denzity Materials”, with all rights reserved and its right of publicity.

You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g., The South China Morning Post, Bloomberg, New York Times), on your website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium and WordPress), and/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to “Denzity” and link back to the URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.

No one is authorized to copy any portion of the Denzity Materials or use Denzity’s name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another’s products or services.

Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!


Market Updates 未分類

Finding clients: Online VS face-to-face?

Finding clients, online or offline? It is now easier to find clients and promote oneself, but on the other hand, the market is getting much more competitive. Let’s find out which way is better.

As real estate agents, we both hate and love the Internet. On one hand, it is now easier to find clients and promote oneself, but on the other hand, the market is getting much more competitive. The online way or the traditional way, which one is better? Let’s find out.

Face-to-face real estate expert

👍🏻Easier to secure clients

Usually, when clients come to consult you face-to-face, they’re not just “browsing around”, especially for making an important financial decision like real estate equity investments. They probably heard about you from a friend and did a little market comparison and research before they decide to talk to you. Clients do not want to waste their time and effort to compare many agents and agencies. In these cases, all you have to do is be prepared for the meeting, show the clients your expertise and share your professional experiences. If your first impression is good enough, the clients will probably hire you right away.

👎🏻Limited marketing channels

Traditional marketing channels for real estate experts can be limited. There are not a lot of platforms, like Denzity, for you to showcase your expertise or communicate with your potential clients. So, it can be challenging to find clients. All you can do is treat every job seriously and hope that your clients will introduce you to their friends.

Online real estate expert

👍🏻More room for you to shine

Social media is a whole new planet for you to explore. With social media platforms like LinkedIn and Facebook, every individual can do their branding. Under this competitive environment, most real estate experts have a few areas of expertise, like Malaysia real estate market, Vietnam real estate equity investment, or feng shui. Agents can share their insights on these social media platforms and reach out to potential clients. Now there are even prop-tech platforms like Denzity where you can communicate with potential clients directly online. With the right techniques, you can get more exposure than ever.

👍🏻Easier communication

Online meeting technology has certainly improved greatly under the pandemic. It is now easy to do video calls no matter where you are, all you need is a stable Internet connection. You can easily communicate with your clients, answer their questions more promptly, and make a better impression. Agents can also join online real estate community groups to share their professional experiences and insights into real estate equity investment enthusiasts. Online communication allows agents to interact with other experts and learn from each other.

👎🏻Real estate agent market is more competitive

Clients can now browse the profile of thousands of real estate experts in like three hours with the Internet. This makes agents harder to stand out in the crowd. Yet, you can treat this as an opportunity to develop your specialty. Become an expert in a particular niche, like rental problems, oversea real estate equity investments, or immigration. This way you can attract more clients and stay competitive.

It is important to maintain your edge in this competitive environment. To do so, you have to invest in yourself. Be your public relations and marketing manager. Build your reputation by creating an online profile. Show the world what you’ve got. Join Denzity today and get your name listed on our extensive directory so that you can reach out to your potential clients. If you have anything particularly interesting you want to share, or you’re specialized in a certain area in real estate equity investment, let us know and maybe you will be the next real estate expert featured in our latest educational series Denzity Insights!

Market Updates 未分類

Denzity Insights: Canada Real Estate Outlook 2020 With Robert Veerman

Canada Real Estate Outlook 2020 With Robert Veerman



The Canadian real estate market has been popular among overseas investors for the past few years. As some of our users asked us about how the COVID-19 and economic downtown have impacted the market, we think it’d be great to have a real estate expert to shed light on this topic. Today, we have Robert sharing his insights.

Robert Veerman is a commercial real estate broker at CBRE Canada. He buys and sells investment and development properties in Canada with a focus on Vancouver and Toronto.

  • The impact of COVID on the Canadian real estate market
  • The shift in investors preference
  • The outlook for the remainder of 2020
  • Any major macro influences that would affect the market

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

This might be painfully obvious – Please note the following legal conditions:

Denzity owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of Denzity’s video programs and publications (collectively referred to as “Denzity Materials”, with all rights reserved and its right of publicity.

You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g., The South China Morning Post, Bloomberg, New York Times), on your website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium and WordPress), and/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to “Denzity” and link back to the URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.

No one is authorized to copy any portion of the Denzity Materials or use Denzity’s name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another’s products or services.


US Federal Reserve:

Anchored Retail:

Safe Haven Investment Destination: In simple words, safe-haven investments are investments that are promising investments and have a comparatively short period of market failure

China Global Tax Scheme:

H1B Visa: The H1B visa is an employment visa issued by the US government to foreign nationals in order to work in the US temporarily.

Capitalization Rates: Capitalization rate or cap rate is the percentage rate of a property’s income.

Interest Rate: The interest rate is a certain percentage of the amount of money lent or borrowed that is charged by the lenders to the borrowers upon returning the original amount over a period of time.


Our video creator:

Patina Design Lab is a strategic design consultancy firm that helps businesses with a wide range of design services.


Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!

Darren :  Hey, Robert, welcome to the show.

Robert:  Thanks, Darren. Glad to be here.

Darren : Yeah, I mean, this is very exciting because we’ve been friends for so long, I think for more almost two decades. And it’s a good time to talk about our jam, real estate. So, you know, for the audience who might not know who you are, would you mind telling them about yourself and your work? 

Robert: Sure, yeah. My name is Robert Veerman. I’m a commercial real estate broker at CBRE in Canada. I cover two major markets here, Vancouver and Toronto in buying and selling real estate. 

Darren: So for the audience, right, I used to live in Vancouver. So when it comes to like Vancouver real estate, I’m always very excited. Because even though every time I go back to Vancouver, there’s so many changes. So there’s one thing that I’m sure a lot of people are curious about, it’s how has Covid-19 impacted the Canadian Real Estate Market at large, especially in Toronto and Vancouver markets? 

Robert: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think Covid definitely is impacted. Everything everywhere around the world. I’ll just talk about it from a timeline perspective. So Covid, kind of first hit, or I would say the lockdowns first happened in Canada, in the middle of March. So for the first two months, I’d say in March and April, there was this virtual shutdown of everything. And that meant for real estate as well. So for residential real estate, as well as commercial real estate, I’d say all kinds of activity trading just stopped. But what was happening in the background, in a huge way was everyone was just trying to figure out how Covid and how this lockdown was going to impact their portfolios, how it was going to impact their real estate. So I was spending a lot of time with clients at that point, not buying and selling stuff, but helping them just shore up the portfolio, buying a lot of data points to understand that. I mean, real estate, fundamentally, is user landlord, you collect rent from the tenants, and then usually the landlord has some kind of financing on it, and you’ll use that rent to pay the banks. So the fact that this is worth running, and there’s this whole fear that, you know, people couldn’t pay rent, because, you know, for example, restaurants, they couldn’t, serve food, and they couldn’t pay rent, they had no money, and the landowners wouldn’t get money, and the banks don’t get money, and the whole system would basically shut down. So there’s this whole fear of having a liquidity crisis. That being said, the, I guess the government response, federal, provincially, and municipally, has been fantastic. And they have definitely worked very, very hard to create a lot of liquidity. And I’d say overall in the industry, everyone in it, from banks, to landlords, to tenants to government have been very, very, very hands on and very shoulder to shoulder working together to make sure things are okay. So now I’d say since then, moving forward to June, July, August, September, things have definitely stabilized. There’s been a new norm that’s set in. And honestly, things are really back to business with, you know, covid precautions, of course.

Darren :  That’s good to know, because it’s something that I hear a lot. And then obviously we’re now in September, and a lot of places around the world are recovering. So due to Covid-19 and the economic impacts, right, do you see a shift in investors preference when it comes to their mandates? 

Robert:  Yeah, for sure. I mean, everyone has shifted their mandates. I mean, to a degree, like the most flexible guys, like myself have definitely shifted my business. The private equity guys, you know, the individual investors have definitely shifted their business, even like the larger institutional investors, obviously, they have a lot at stake, they have a lot of existing portfolio, a lot of existing assets, but even they have adjusted their outlook on the market. Generally speaking, most things have come out of it unscathed. Most guys, artists in steel position. Now there have been a few shakeups like three deals I’m working on right now are receivership deals.They’re you know, properties where the landlord or the owner base a default on their mortgage and has no means to repay it and the bank has been possessing them and forcing them to sell and I’d say a lot of private investors naturally gravitated towards those deals. And, you know, there’s definitely a frenzy of activity, I’d say, from everyone across the board asking me, “Robert, you know, what kind of deals do you have, like receivership deals? Like, Where can I buy 50 cents on the dollar.” And this definitely did occur mostly in the development space, because those are at the most risk defaulting, you know, like, it’s not a development property it’s not like a income property, where you’re just collecting rent from a tenant. Development property, you know, you require certain things like pre sales, you know, you have ongoing construction, and you have much higher leverage loans. So if anything stops for whatever reason, it can have a much bigger impact on your bottom line. So, that’s definitely happened. But that being said, it hasn’t been the norm. Like, there’s definitely more people asking for that kind of product than there is available. And the pricing, though, it’s not exactly what people expected, you know, people are looking for 50 cents of the dollar. But the reality is, it’s more like 70, 80, 90 cents in the dollar. Because at the end of the day, a lot of these properties are backed by mortgages from banks, and the banks will have loan to value ratios of, you know, 70%, 80%, and the banks themselves don’t want to lose money. Yeah, I mean, I think another big trend I would say is that debtors cheat. And it’s definitely here to stay. And, you know, the US Federal Reserve now is that they’re gonna keep rates low for the foreseeable future. The Bank of Canada is really in lockstep. And financing overall is like much cheaper, it was very hard to get in the beginning of Covid, because the banks themselves couldn’t even underwrite what was happening. But now that things have settled down, the banks can kind of see the trajectory again. And financing is very, very, very cheap. So because of that, actually, I’d say there’s three main asset classes that are very, very much in demand. Not like receivership type deals, but like more normal market deals, that’s multifamily, industrial and it’d say grocery anchored retail. Those are the three asset classes that have continued to do well through Covid, if not have done better. Just to give you a brief example, for grocery retail, I talked to a few of like the biggest grocery stores in Canada. And they’re saying that their sales through Covid, you know, from March till now has been the highest ever on record, more than during Christmas season more than Thanksgiving. So their business is booming, long and short. Multifamily, people always need a place to live. And we’ve done a servia profile of all our investing base, Google multifamily. And I’d say 90%-95% to 99% of them reported that they have no issue collecting rent, and industrial logistics, it has always been in vogue. It always been popular even before Covid. And even now with more online shipping. You know, and what have you it just continues to be popular. 

Darren : I see. So, you know, like I know you for quite some time, right, and you’re quite involved with the Asian investors such as Hong Kong and China, how’s the demand for Canadian assets fared over during 2020? 

Robert: I mean, I’d say, Canada has always been a popular destination for you know, international capital. It’s always been seen as a safe haven investment destination, not the greatest growth, you know, Canada’s not Vietnam. But, you know, very stable, and the kind of the economy is largely backed by the American, it’s a shadow of the American economy as well. So people have always come here. 2020 I haven’t seen that much asian interest. I think for several reasons. Mainland Chinese interest, there is still some and you know, we’re doing a couple of deals with them. But it has not been the wave that we’ve seen in the past, I’d say five to ten years in Canada. And I’d say one of the major reasons behind that is one, cap controls in China. It’s just harder and harder to bring money out of China. Two, it’s a trade war, right? So you know, like, if you’re a Chinese citizen, I think the Chinese government now is doing all it can to make sure that capital stays in China. I mean, you live in Hong Kong, if you’re a Chinese citizen in Hong Kong, you pay more tax income taxes living in Hong Kong than you do if you’re working in mainland China. So I think the Chinese government’s implementation of the global tax scheme is definitely pulling people back and having people second guess or, think, again, about taking capital out. But that being said, actually, a kind of interesting trend that I’m seeing right now, our team is seeing right now is that we’re seeing Chinese capital being redeployed into Canada, but not from China, but from other places in the world, namely, the US. I think the trade war is definitely forcing some players to sell their assets in the US whether for political reasons, or just no safety of their investment, I think there’s a general fear that having a capital in the American markets, you know, it may not be safe, right, if something can happen to it. So we’re actually seeing quite a few groups that have previously invested in the US but never invest in Canada, now looking at Canada. For Hong Kong, investors, I think there’s a big buzz about you know, more Hong Kong, investors looking at Canada, I’d say I’d see it on the residential scale.I think a lot actually, I’d say there’s a good number of Hong Kong people, you know, who I think have traditional ties to Canada, who are, you know, kind of redeploying back into Canada? And I wouldn’t say it’s more from a capital perspective, more from like, a living perspective. You know, I think I’ve had some people reach out to me, asking me about jobs here. And with the job environment, especially how real estate is in in Vancouver in Toronto. So I think there’s definitely a migration of people, but not necessarily capital from Hong Kong. 

Darren : I see. So what’s your outlook for the remainder of 2010? 

Robert: I think a lot of big deals are going to happen. One thing I forgot to mention, actually, you asked me about Asian investors but I’d say one of the main foreign investors in Canada right now are the Americans and maybe the Europeans. And I think for the rest of 2020, I think pencils are backed up in September. Todays september the 17th. The pencils are definitely backed up in September. And I think we’re going to see a lot of activity, we’re going to see a lot of big activity happen in the next few months, I’d say in the next six months, things may close in 2020. Things may also close in the first quarter of 2021. But I’m working on some deals, I can’t disclose what but a lot of the big players are making some big moves right now. Either they’re buying or selling and repositioning. I think what a lot of people don’t realize is that, you know, we’re still a peak market. And, you know, Covid has created like a low market, there’s no longer much of a market force kind of pushing things up or push things down. And I think a lot of players are using this opportunity to make strategic place that they’ve always planned to make. But they’re executing on this now. So for the rest of 2020, what do I see? I see a lot more American firms buying up here, namely buying multifamily and office. I think the Americans have two plays, or one play up here. And that’s they know that all the tech companies Facebook, Amazon, Google, want to open have opened and want to open more offices in Canada. For some reasons, Canadian dollars lower. It’s the same timezone as the US. It’s a short flight from the US and to get international talent now so like your top programmers from China, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, where have you immigration to Canada is much easier. US you have to get an h1 b visa, which is kind of up in the air right now with the current administration. But in Canada, if you have a job offer to say, Facebook, for example, or Microsoft, and you’re an Indonesian, for example, or Brazilian, it’ll take two weeks to process and get you working in Canada. So I think they see that as a very attractive alternative, you know, to secure that human capital. And I think the American real estate companies, you know, are buying office based on that, they know that these tech companies still want to expand. And I think they’re buying multifamily as well, because it kind of goes hand in hand, if you have population coming in, they need a place to live. And they’ll be pressures on rent growth, especially in Vancouver and Toronto, like they can see here it’s like, what less than one 1%. So there’s no new product, if one person moves in, there’s like no, no, for them to live, right. So there’s a lot of pressure for rent to go up. And I’d say a lot of like the big institutions as well, they Canadian institutions, which have a very, very big presence in real estate in Canada and in the world honestly, they’re one like the biggest investors globally in real estate. In China, Hong Kong, Europe, what have you, they’re going to be making strategic moves, buying and selling in Canada as well. 

Darren : I see that’s very informative. So you know a lot of the audience have actually asked me beforehand of the show, is that during just about macro influence, what are some macro influence you think investors should be aware of in the next few years, which will impact the attractiveness of investor investing in Canada? 

Robert: I think there are three things for sure. There’s three main macro discussion points that people should be aware of, if you’re a small investor, or a super large investor, the first is interest rates. Interest rates are going to remain low for the support seeable future. What does that mean exactly? It means that debt is going to continue to be cheap, and that there’s going to be further pressure for cap rates to go down. And for those who don’t know what a cap rate is, it’s basically the income of a property, like the first year’s income or property, their expected return. So if interest rates continue to stay low or go down, there will be pressure for good quality assets, you know, that have strong rents for the spread between the cap rate and the interest rate to go down. I think that’s one major trend that people should pay attention to. The second major trend is taxes. Through Covid, I think Canada is in a fantastic job creating liquidity. But they’ve also added a lot of new money to the supply. They’ve created a lot of new money. And I think all over the world, governments are increasing their deficits, so to speak, to help pay for this short term instability. But at end of the day, they need to get that money back somehow. And they aren’t getting it back through increasing interest rates for you know, like government bonds, they’re clearly not getting it back from there. I think one easy, very easy way for them to get it back is through increasing capital gain taxes, or any kind of transactional tax for investor, right. For all the people who’ve gotten more and more money in these past few months, you know, it’s the easiest way to get it back just to tax them on their investments. So I would look out for any kind of sign of capital gains tax increase in Canada, their budget is being put forth next year in the spring, q1 q2 of next year. So that’s definitely a thing to watch out for. And I think a lot of the moves people are making right now isn’t potentially an anticipation of that. I think if capital gains goes up, any kind of transaction tax goes up, they’ll be less trades, it will make the underlying value of the asset or the real estate worth less, in fact, will make it worth more because for anyone to sell, they’re going to have to sell for more to get a certain return if their taxes are up. So I think it’ll make things more expensive. For good quality stuff, obviously for stuff that’s not desirable or has issues, then that stuff will probably go down. But for stuff that’s super desirable multifamily, industrial, super stable, super safe, grocery, those, like will be harder and harder to trade. And the people who own that stuff will probably be in the best position.I’d say the third trend is immigration. Growth. Another way that I’d say the Canadian government can pay for a lot of this deficit. And the way that it historically has is just the immigration, and that’s through. Immigrants bring money, they bring capital. And they also, you know, increase the GDP of the country. So I think that’s generally a positive sentiment for Canada, you know, increasing immigration, because that will increase growth overall. So I think that’s another major trend to look out for. 

Darren : That’s very informative. I think that like everything you’ve said, so far is very in depth, so thanks for your time. So for time being right, what are some ways that if someone watches this video and wants to ask you more questions in commercial real estate or as a whole, how would I suggest them to reach out to you? 

Robert: Yeah, I’m sure my contacts will be above or below. I mean, why should someone reach out to me, I’m a real estate broker. I work at CBRE. We’re the largest, actually the largest commercial real estate company in the world, full service real estate company. We have a lot of different business lines, from investment to capital markets, leasing, property management, asset management, you know, the whole gamut appraisal.Me Myself, I work on the investment side as a broker. Yeah, if you’ve any questions regarding commercial real estate, or in fact, like commercial real estate in Canada, for that matter, feel free to reach out to me send me an email, give me a phone call. I think for people that don’t know real estate, and perhaps like they’re on Denzity, you know, looking for more insight in real estate and how to get into it, I would say this, like, it’s, it’s a great asset type, it’s a great investment to get into. And you can start very, very small. I’d say some of the biggest portfolios I’ve built from just one small building, you know, using, I guess, a celebrity as an example. I was, I mean, I went to school down in LA, everyone always used to talk about Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnold Schwarzenegger is an actor. He’s this guy who came from Vienna, from Austria. He started buying commercial real estate, apartment buildings, actually, you know, when he first started. You buy one, and then you refi it a few years later, then you buy another one. And you just keep rolling, right? 

Darren : Yeah. You know, I think he covered a lot about his real estate deals in his book, how to recall. So it’s interesting because he make his money before his acting career kicks off. So yeah, I think real estate, I love this sector and that’s why we’re here. And I want to give a shout out to our High School St. George’s too, you know, that’s how I know you and have become friends. So I’m sure in round two, we can get other people like our friend Danny, who you know, as a pension guy is an investment manager, he can talk more about investing as a whole in real estate or even fixed income assets. So I’ll say again, thanks for your time, and I really appreciate your time, making this happen together. 

Robert: We’ll do, thanks Darren. 

Darren : Okay see you next time. Thank you. Good day. 

Robert: Cheers. 

Darren: Bye.

Market Updates 未分類

Real estate expert: Online VS face-to-face?

Should I find a real estate expert online or should I do it the traditional way? That is a question.

Nowadays you can practically find anything online. Especially during the pandemic, online shopping has become the prominent trend. You can buy food, clothes, and services online, and even real estate expert services. Some people may think that real estate equity investment is too “serious” to be done online, however, there could be more pros than cons. Let’s look at the difference between online real estate expert and face-to-face consultation.

Face-to-face real estate expert

👍🏻Higher credibility

For traditional real estate agents, marketing relies heavily on offline strategies like direct sales. Agents and agencies can only build their reputations step by step with years of experience and excellent services. Customers usually decide to hire a particular real estate expert because their friends and families endorsed his or her service. This gives customers more confidence, knowing that they are in good hands.

👎🏻Less convenient

To do it the old-school way, you probably have to visit the real estate expert to start the consultation process. During the pandemic, it can be difficult to find a safe place to talk for hours. Also, for an investment as big as a real estate equity investment, you may want to compare the prices and fees of several agencies before you make a decision. You will then have to spend some time and effort to talk to a few real estate experts, and then compare their services manually. Just think about the workload.

Online real estate expert

👍🏻More sources of information

In the past, if you want to know more about a niche in real estate equity investment, you have to go to a local real estate agency and read their posters or brochures. If you are looking to invest in an oversea real estate market, let’s say, the Malaysia real estate market, then it could be a little troublesome because local real estate agencies may not have substantial information on this subject. Yet, now you can easily search online for information about other real estate markets. There are even prop-tech platforms like Denzity for you to look for real estate experts with specific expertise, like Vietnam real estate market, Malaysia real estate development, and feng shui.

👍🏻More extensive background search

With more choices comes more considerations when making decisions. To choose the best agent, comparison and background search are essential. You can utilize the Internet to do a more thorough background search on your agents.

👍🏻More channels to find agents

Instead of asking your friends who had purchased real estate before or checking out local real estate agencies one by one, you can now go online to do so. There are endless ways to find a real estate agent now. For instance, you can use Denzity’s directory to find the real estate expert that is just right for you. After figuring out what you want, you can apply the filter and browse real estate experts specialized in the area you’re interested in, like feng shui or Vietnam real estate market.


The Internet not only makes our lives easier but also scammer’s businesses. Let’s be honest here, there certainly are scammers in the real estate equity investment business. That’s why it is important to do research and seek consultation from credible organisations. For example, Denzity is a third-party platform for you to learn more about real estate equity investment and browse lists of unaffiliated real estate agents.

Do you prefer the online way or the traditional way? Let us know in the comment section.

Market Updates 未分類

Denzity Insights Transcript: Real Estate STO: Challenge and Outlook With Michael Wong

Real Estate STO: Challenge and Outlook With Michael Wong

Connect with Michael:




While real estate tokenization has been touted as a new movement, it hasn’t yet garnered significant momentum. As the coronavirus has accelerated the world economy’s digitization, has the pandemic pressure accelerated tokenization in real estate as well? In this episode, we have Michael sharing his thoughts on it.

Michael Wong is the co-founder of MaiBlocks Technology and MaiCapital, which is a fintech start-up in HK that aims to solve an age-old problem:  making illiquid investments more liquid.

  • Why is the security token offering a big topic in real estate?
  • How to participate in real estate tokenization
  • Things to be aware of while investing
  • Impact of COVID on real estate STO

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

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Asia Security Token Alliance (ASTA):



Real Estate Security Token Offering: STO in real estate allows investors to have fractional ownership as the security tokens represent the market value of tokenized real estate assets.

Illiquid investment: Securities or assets that can neither be sold or exchanged easily for an equal value.

Digitized fund: Digitized funds are capital funds that have been digitized with the use of blockchain technology.

Blockchain technology: A blockchain is basically a chain of blocks containing information online. The structure of a blockchain technology is designed as such, so that the data stored within cannot be tampered with.

REITs: REITs are companies or farms that manage or own properties that generate a stable income. With REIT investment, investors can enjoy a steady profit without going through any hassle of operating the asset.

STO exchange:  STO in real estate allows investors to have fractional ownership as the security tokens represent the market value of tokenized real estate assets. These tokenized assets can be traded on platforms known as STO exchanges.

Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!


Michael Wong

Darren Wong: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Hey, Mike. Hey, thanks for joining us.

Darren Wong:[00:00:00][00:00:00]嘿,Mike。嘿,謝謝你加入我們。

[00:00:01]Michael Wong: [00:00:01] Hey Darren. Good to see you again.


[00:00:03]Darren Wong: [00:00:03] Yeah, It’s been half like a year last time I see you.

[00:00:03]Darren Wong:[00:00:03]是的,我上次見到你已經是半年前。

[00:00:07]Michael Wong: [00:00:07] Yeah, it’s been a while. All these [00:00:10] interesting things happening in the world.


[00:00:11]Darren Wong: [00:00:11] Yeah, which is something that I’ll talk to you about, because we’re both in ASTA. And then we haven’t talked about what’s going to

[00:00:11]Darren Wong:[00:00:11]是的,因為我們都在ASTA,所以我會和你談談關於ASTA的事情。我們還沒談過市場會

[00:00:20] market or even what’s going on with regulation and even the real estate security token offering space. So this interview is something that I really want to talk to you about, even personally,


[00:00:30] to learn more what’s going on. So for the audience that don’t know who you are and what you do, would you mind give them a very short intro?


[00:00:38]Michael Wong: [00:00:38] Oh, sure, definitely. So Hi,


[00:00:40] everyone. My name is Michael and I’m a co-founder of MaiBlocks and MaiCapital. And what we’re doing here is we’re a FinTech


[00:00:50] startup here in Hong Kong that aims to solve an age-old problem, which is turning illiquid investments into something more liquid.


[00:01:00] And we’re trying to use the power of blockchain to help with that. So when people think about, for example, investing into real estate, traditionally, people would immediately associate that with


[00:01:10] something that’s very illiquid. So what we’re hoping is to use the power of blockchain to basically make this whole investment


[00:01:20] much more liquid. We’re calling this as digitised funds. But you can check out more on our website as well


[00:01:30] at

[00:01:30] 網址是

[00:01:31]Darren Wong: [00:01:31] So for people who don’t know about blockchain or crypto, what are the differences between the security token offering and initial coin

[00:01:31]Darren Wong:[00:01:31]那麼對於不瞭解區塊鏈或加密技術的人來說,簡單的來說,安全代幣發行和初始幣所提供的

[00:01:40] offering in simple terms?


[00:01:42]Michael Wong: [00:01:42] Yeah, so there are a few key differences I would summarise them into a

[00:01:42]Michael Wong:[00:01:42]是的,所以我將它們總結為

[00:01:50] few key words. One is asset backed, the other one is regulation. And the third is risk. So both ICOs and STOs,


[00:02:00] STO meaning security tokens, use blockchain technology to enable a crowdfunding mechanism for people to raise capital.


[00:02:10] And the key difference here is STOs are backed by actual tangible assets. These could be real assets like real estate, or it


[00:02:20] could be income streams or profit streams, where ICOs are more promises of future services or


[00:02:30] future products that you could use or buy. And so that’s one key difference is STO is backed by something that’s much more tangible.


[00:02:40] The other thing is regulation. So there’s really, in many jurisdictions, STO is heavily regulated. There’s specific


[00:02:50] rules on what you can and cannot do, whereas ICOs in many cases are not. So the third key difference, which is risk,


[00:03:00] because the ICO is, in many cases, not properly regulated, it could be rampant with fraud and scams. And there’s a much


[00:03:10] higher risk of speculation, where STOs is much more grounded.


[00:03:13]Darren Wong: [00:03:13] So obviously like blockchain has been a big topic for not only real estates, so is a really big industry and something that a lot

[00:03:13]Darren Wong:[00:03:13]顯然,區塊鏈不僅是房地產的一大主題,而且是一個非常大的行業,而且很多

[00:03:20] people, like yourself, obviously is thinking about, it’s gonna change how we look at trading and how we securitize something. So why is it huge


[00:03:30] for real estate when it comes to STO and then how’s the difference comparing to a REITs?

[00:03:30] 為什麼房地產是很重要的?和房地產投資信託相比又有什麼區別?

[00:03:37]Michael Wong: [00:03:37] Yeah, so real estate, as I started


[00:03:40] earlier, people associated with investing in real estate is difficult to get in and also difficult to get out, meaning it’s very illiquid.


[00:03:50] Traditionally, in the real estate world, there aren’t that many ways to invest into real estate, especially on commercial properties.


[00:04:00] Traditionally, either you go through private equity, which is still very illiquid in its form or through REITs, which is


[00:04:10] essentially an IPO. So a listed process, which is much more liquid, so it allows a lot of people to get in, get out much easier, but it’s very expensive to


[00:04:20] structure. So, what ends up happening is REITs tends to have many many assets under its portfolio. And


[00:04:30] so the whole investment profile, the whole return profile, is washed out, is averaged out across many different


[00:04:40] assets. So for you seldom you would see single asset REITs, for example. STO in this case, because it is cheaper to structure


[00:04:50] and is cheaper to issue, then it allows asset owners to structure single asset STOs, which would


[00:05:00] offer similarly more liquid capabilities so people can get in and get out easier. So that’s one of the key differences between


[00:05:10] STO and REITs. There are other differences. For example, REITs are usually traded in public markets, which is only opened during business hours. Tokens

[00:05:10] 證券型代幣和房地產投資信託。還有其他不同之處。例如,房地產投資信託通常在公開市場交易,而公開市場只在營業時間開放。代幣

[00:05:20] can be traded 24/7, and there are also these various differences as well.


[00:05:25]Darren Wong: [00:05:25] So obviously, it sounds really cool, right? I mean, just something that as a real estate investor, like,

[00:05:25]Darren Wong:[00:05:25]顯然,這聽起來很酷,對吧?我是說,作為一個房地產投資者,

[00:05:30] wow, that’s crazy. You can do that. But then, people have talked about this for a very long time, but how has it not be a mainstream? And then, in that regard,


[00:05:40] obviously it’s not mainstream yet, what kind of challenges there are for the real estate asset being tokenized?


[00:05:44]Michael Wong: [00:05:44] So on the first point, it has been talked about


[00:05:50] this concept for over a year. And however it is still relatively new. It’s a new concept, especially to investors. And I think


[00:06:00] there are a few reasons. You know, one reason obviously is they are still a lot of hurdles to get through before you can actually issue an STO, including technology,


[00:06:10] regulation, even financial considerations. But we think there’s also one key element that’s been missing in this


[00:06:20] ecosystem is exchange. A big benefit of STO is liquidity, so ability for people to exit the secondary


[00:06:30] markets, like exchanges. However, exchanges that can support security tokens need to be properly regulated and licenced. And so, this depends on the


[00:06:40] regulator giving out licences to these operators. And right now, the regulator’s from all over the world it’s still been slow in distributing


[00:06:50] these licences, so the virus definitely put a


[00:07:00] pause on all these activities as well. But we think over the next 6 to 12 months, we do expect more and more of these exchanges to pop out with


[00:07:10] proper licences and proper regulation behind them. And so once these markets appear, then hopefully these liquidity will then show up.

[00:07:10] 交易出現。因此,一旦這些市場出現,那麼希望這些流動性會出現。

[00:07:20] And so that’s one of the reasons why it hasn’t really picked up in the mainstream. And regarding your second question on why


[00:07:30] hasn’t real estate asset owners swarm to doing tokenizing these assets? I think, in a lot of cases,


[00:07:40] people are in a wait-and-see mode, whereas they don’t really want to be the first guy hooked and, so a lot of


[00:07:50] people are just waiting for more success stories before they jump into this. So this becomes a little bit of a chicken and egg where you want to have good


[00:08:00] assets out there but then you want to have good liquidity and which comes first.


[00:08:05]Darren Wong: [00:08:05] So in your opinion, what type of real estate asset type what

[00:08:05]Darren Wong:[00:08:05]那麼在你看來,什麼樣的房地產資產類型是什麼

[00:08:10] investment strategy that are best suited for tokenize? And then, what aren’t the best for tokenized?


[00:08:16]Michael Wong: [00:08:16] Yeah, so, again, because this is still a very new


[00:08:20] concept, so we want to remove as much of the uncertainties as possible. And so, by putting assets that


[00:08:30] are less risky, that are already generating regular dividends or regular yields, those types of


[00:08:40] assets, I think, would make more sense for STOs today. And also commercial properties


[00:08:50] is going to be more interesting for STO space because there are already many different ways for people to invest into residential properties. Now, whereas commercial properties are


[00:09:00] still quite limited in the accessibility of it. So we think a mixture of these type of assets would be a better fit for now.


[00:09:09]Darren Wong: [00:09:09] I

[00:09:09]Darren Wong:[00:09:09]我

[00:09:10] see. So, I know because we talk a lot before about what kind of asset and everything, right? Is there something in your mind that you think it


[00:09:20] should be, because less risky is a very broad term, is there a certain like size or even, for example, income generating and


[00:09:30] less risk? What does that mean to you? Does anyone know in your point of view, that’s it.


[00:09:33]Michael Wong: [00:09:33] I think there’s an element of, you know, how much of the market exists today. So if you throw


[00:09:40] something out that’s huge, let’s say a billion dollar worth of assets, probably the market is not there yet to pick up the whole


[00:09:50] piece of the asset. So in terms of size, I think we’re still in the 10 to 100 million dollar size,


[00:10:00] kind of the US dollar market. And in terms of risks, what we’re meaning is that there are different types of investment


[00:10:10] properties. It could be a property where you’re just buying a piece of land where the whole property hasn’t been built yet, but it needs to be built up from ground up. So


[00:10:20] those, in many cases, are what we categorise as much more risky, versus where you already have an existing building that’s in an


[00:10:30] office building and you’re already collecting rent from existing tenants. We have an ongoing track record from the returns of the


[00:10:40] property that we’ll, in our state, will categorise it as a more certain investment.


[00:10:48]Darren Wong: [00:10:48] I see. I

[00:10:48]Darren Wong:[00:10:48]我明白了。我

[00:10:50] think that I feel like if we do this, like every single year, I think it will be like, you look back to how things are becoming and evolving, that would be kind of cool in the future from


[00:11:00] speculating to it happens more cases in cases, because I obviously hope the industry goes well, too. So something that is in my mind be like, “that’s kind of cool if that happens”. And


[00:11:10] so as if to follow up, so what other components or parties need to be involved or participate to make the real estate tokenization happen or matured?


[00:11:19][00:11:20] Michael Wong: [00:11:19] They are obviously different players. There’s technology players, there are financial players and obviously the real estate players. But I think a big key component is


[00:11:30] regulators, or the government. So basically having the government behind it, and putting


[00:11:40] down the right rules and regulation to protect investors, I think that would give a lot of confidence to attract


[00:11:50] more, both retail and institutional investors to come into the space. So I think that is a big piece of this as well.


[00:11:57]Darren Wong: [00:11:57] I see. So for

[00:11:57]Darren Wong:[00:11:57]我明白了。所以

[00:12:00] existing real estate STO out there, what are things that the audience need to be aware of?


[00:12:07]Michael Wong: [00:12:07] Ultimately


[00:12:10] what the investors will be investing is the underlying asset. The token really facilitates the investment but it’s not really the point of the


[00:12:20] investment, when you’re investing is the underlying property or real estate or whatever asset it is. So I think the key is the valuation of what you’re investing


[00:12:30] should focus mainly on that asset itself, rather than the token. So this removes a lot of the


[00:12:40] speculative aspect of this. And I think that’s most important. I mean, the other parts also is you need to


[00:12:50] worry about the issuance and the service providers that are providing these tokens to you making sure that they’re


[00:13:00] legitimate. They are proper. That’s to protect you on investments.


[00:13:05]Darren Wong: [00:13:05] That’s good. Well, because like we’re both in Hong Kong and something that even I want to

[00:13:05]Darren Wong:[00:13:05]很好。嗯,因為我們都在香港,所以我想

[00:13:10] ask you, where are we with the real estate STO in Hong Kong, and then how’s activities with different countries at the moment?


[00:13:19]Michael Wong: [00:13:19] Hong Kong,


[00:13:20] frankly, has been relatively slow, compared to the rest of the world. I think the regulator has been pretty public


[00:13:30] about supporting digital assets and related business, including STO. However, we have not seen any


[00:13:40] actual licences, for example, that’s given out to exchanges. But we do expect probably maybe that was


[00:13:50] delayed by the virus pandemic. Hopefully we’ll see some progress closer to the end of this year.


[00:14:00] Compared to the US and Singapore, they actually have already issued licences to exchanges and major players in the space. So


[00:14:10] at least for now, seemingly, they’re moving a little bit faster than Hong Kong. But hopefully Hong Kong can catch up soon.


[00:14:17]Darren Wong: [00:14:17] So like you know,

[00:14:17]Darren Wong:[00:14:17]所以,你知道我曾

[00:14:20] at ASTA for a while, learning about the sharing insight about STO world and stuff like that. And there’s a lot of noise online too, and

[00:14:20] 參加過亞洲證券型代幣聯盟一段日子,學習關於STO世界的見解和諸如此類的東西。網上也有很多聲音,而且

[00:14:30] everyone have different opinions and stuff like that. What is something in this industry that you think is misunderstood or overrated?


[00:14:35]Michael Wong: [00:14:35] I think there’s a lot of


[00:14:40] misconception STO the T stands for token. But when people think about token, then a lot of people immediately associate that with ICOs


[00:14:50] or a lot back in 2017 2018, where there were a lot of frauds and scams associated with ICOs and


[00:15:00] tokens, and so people will immediately become very risk averse on accepting does that idea, even though you know token is essentially


[00:15:10] a term that we computer geeks come up with, to represent something that’s virtual. It’s


[00:15:20] really a tool, and a tool can be properly managed and the risk can be contained if


[00:15:30] there are enough protections around it. And so, STO is nothing like these type of scam tokens out there. So I think that’s one of the biggest

[00:15:30] 則可以對工具進行適當的管理並控制風險。所以,STO和外面的這些騙局一點都不像。所以我認為這是最大的

[00:15:40] misconception of them.


[00:15:41]Darren Wong: [00:15:41] I see. So for the audience, right, who might be people who are technologists, real estate owners,

[00:15:41]Darren Wong:[00:15:41]我明白了。所以對於觀眾來說,對吧,他們可能是科技專家,房地產商,

[00:15:50] or people who just want to participate in this whole movement, what would you suggest that they can participate?


[00:15:58]Michael Wong: [00:15:58] So,


[00:16:00] I think the best thing is to invest, to actually try it out. I think you won’t know how it works until you actually try it. I


[00:16:10] don’t mean going all out and put all your savings into it, but there are now more and more ways for people to


[00:16:20] get on exchanges or websites where you can actually legally buy and invest in these STOs. So I would


[00:16:30] encourage people to just try it out, put down a little bit of money just to see it and see how it works.


[00:16:34]Darren Wong: [00:16:34] So just now, I think a couple questions ago, we talked about how COVID-19 might have

[00:16:34]Darren Wong:[00:16:34]剛才,我想幾個問題之前,我們討論了新冠肺炎可能令

[00:16:40] delayed a little bit of the process, right? But then even with COVID-19 and the recession, how do you think that they impact the real estate STO movement so far?


[00:16:49]Michael Wong: [00:16:49] It’s


[00:16:50] interesting, because the pandemic, while it’s devastating to many people, forced a lot of people to think about how to do things differently.


[00:17:00] And one of the key impact is just a lot less face-to-face time. Now even you and I have to


[00:17:10] talk over Zoom now instead of meeting face to face.        


[00:17:14]Darren Wong: [00:17:14] We’re twenty minutes away, you know. I could take a cab and find you. Yeah, sorry, keep going.

[00:17:14]Darren Wong:[00:17:14]我離你只有20分鐘的車程,你知道的。所以,我可以搭計程車來找你。是的,對不起,請繼續。

[00:17:20] Sorry about that.


[00:17:20]Michael Wong: [00:17:20] No worries. So a lot of traditional means of raising capital, such as private equities, a lot of deals close


[00:17:30] after face-to-face meetings, but then now these meetings don’t occur, and which means it’s much harder to close these deals. And so STOs offer an alternative way for


[00:17:40] people to, to close deals and raise capital. Furthermore, I think the pandemic is causing a lot of valuation


[00:17:50] issues for real estate home and asset owners as well. And so, some of these guys are now looking into more alternative ways to raise capital,

[00:17:50] 我認為疫情病也給房地產房屋和資產所有者帶來了很多估值問題。所以,這些人中的一些人現在正在尋找更多的融資方式,

[00:18:00] beyond just the traditional means. And so I think STO is something that is now getting on their radar.


[00:18:07]Darren Wong: [00:18:07] Yeah, because like, I think there’s a company that I

[00:18:07]Darren Wong:[00:18:07]是的,因為我知道有一家公司

[00:18:10] think we both know are doing like virtual roadshow, and then I was like, “Oh, that’s kind of cool”, and then I was looking at some tech recently were


[00:18:20] like virtual showing, drones surveillance and stuff like that. I even, personally, I feel like this can work, everything combined together, it’s not only STOs about the investing


[00:18:30] world, about the real estate investing, how we come together to build in and more people can participate in all shape and size. And then so like the audience might not


[00:18:40] know that you’re from San Francisco, and I’m sure you have technologists thinking, what should we expect to see when it comes to the STO world in a few years time?


[00:18:50] My point of view.


[00:18:51]Michael Wong: [00:18:51] I think we would expect a much more vibrant ecosystem with a lot of different players, with exchanges, with issuers,

[00:18:51]Michael Wong:[00:18:51]我認為我們會期待一個更加充滿活力的生態系統,也會有很多不同的參與者,有交易所,有發行人,

[00:19:00] with asset owners and investors right all together and seeing this whole story play out on a global basis as


[00:19:10] well. So we’re not talking about Hong Kong people investing into Hong Kong assets, we’re talking about Hong Kong people investing into tokenize assets from the States, and people


[00:19:20] in Africa investing into assets potentially in Hong Kong. So I think that’s what we expect. It does take more time to build it out.


[00:19:30] But I think in three, four years time, this will be much more interesting.


[00:19:34]Darren Wong: [00:19:34] I see. If you have a message to everyone in the STO or real estate

[00:19:34]Darren Wong:[00:19:34]我明白了。如果你有話要告訴STO或房地產界別的每個人

[00:19:40] sector, and what would that be?


[00:19:42]Michael Wong: [00:19:42] I think what’s happening in the world today is really a strong

[00:19:42]邁克爾·王(Michael Wong):[00:19:42]我認為當今世界正在發生的事情真的是一個

[00:19:50] indication that a lot of things needs to change and how they’re done. And there’s a lot of talks about


[00:20:00] whether globalisation was to exist with this pandemic still running rampant and people can’t travel and they can’t see each other. But I think


[00:20:10] globalisation will still continue, but is in much less a physical form.


[00:20:13]Darren Wong: [00:20:13] I see.

[00:20:13]Darren Wong:[00:20:13]我明白了。

[00:20:14]Michael Wong: [00:20:14] Instead, I think a lot more things will happen online, right? We didn’t have these zoom calls much, at


[00:20:20] least much less frequent, before COVID-19. And so a lot of things will happen online, transactions will happen online, and STO is poised


[00:20:30] to replace a lot of these real-estate-type investments and transactions and activities.


[00:20:35]Darren Wong: [00:20:35] Actually, that sounds like a very good takeaway for the audience just to know what’s going on. And

[00:20:35]Darren Wong:[00:20:35]實際上,對於觀眾來說,這聽起來很不錯,因為他們知道發生了什麼。以及

[00:20:40] do you have other takeaways that you want the audience to take away from this whole video?


[00:20:45]Michael Wong: [00:20:45] Yeah, I think it’s STO again, it’s a brand new concept. I


[00:20:50] think it’s a very interesting concept, whether you’re an investor or an asset holder, it’s something that could be interesting and valuable to you. And so if you’re


[00:21:00] looking into this a little bit more and you want to learn more about it, please check out our website,,


[00:21:10] m-a-i-b-l-o-c-k-s-.-com and you can even sign up on our platform and check out on deals that we start to have on our platform. And


[00:21:20] if you’d like to talk to us personally, maiblocks, we can offer an end-to-end service in the space of Sto. And we would love


[00:21:30] to talk to you about it.                   


[00:21:31]Darren Wong: [00:21:31] That’s great. I think, Well, obviously, I will include everything in the show notes. And then I think we should meet up soon because it’s been a while.


[00:21:40] Thanks so much for your time. Because we know what Denzity insight, we cover a lot of different things. And STO has been this biggest biggest thing that


[00:21:50] I even take a long time to learn and digest everything, so I hope that we have this more often some kind of long form discussions. And then even maybe we can


[00:22:00] have this like whole every quarter of learning about STO what’s going on. So it’s something that I want to thank you for having the time to talk to us and then I hope the audience, too, will learn more about


[00:22:10] how the whole world will be coming a couple years time.


[00:22:13]Michael Wong: [00:22:13] Yeah, definitely. Thank you for taking the time to learning about our world. And I think this is a great channel for


[00:22:20] people like us to communicate new ideas to the world.


[00:22:23]Darren Wong: [00:22:23] Yeah. Thanks so much and talk to you next time then, thank you.

[00:22:23]Darren Wong:[00:22:23]是的。非常感謝,下次再和你談談,謝謝。

[00:22:26]Michael Wong: [00:22:26] Alright, see you later. Thank you. Bye bye.


[00:22:27]Darren Wong: [00:22:27] Bye bye.

[00:22:27]Darren Wong:[00:22:27]再見。

Market Updates 未分類

Denzity Insights Transcript: Surveyor 101 with Tom Parker

Surveyor 101 with Tom Parker

Connect with Tom:




The surveyor plays an essential role, but a lot of real estate investors do not fully understand their work. Today, we have Tom to tell us more about it.

Tom is a Chartered Surveyor at Colliers International Hong Kong. He works within the Valuation and Advisory Services department where he is responsible for providing property valuation and consultancy advice to institutional and private investors across Asia. 

  • What are the key roles of a surveyor?
  • What are the different types of surveyors?
  • How do surveyors impact an investment?
  • Why is it necessary to engage with one?

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

This might be painfully obvious – Please note the following legal conditions:

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Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!


Darren: Hey, Tom.

Tom: Hey, Darren, how’s it going?

Darren: It’s good. Good. Thanks for coming in, because I think I met you, I think last year, close to last year. And there were happy hour drinks with a bunch of people in our industry. And last month, again, I met you with my friend Gary. And it’s great to talk about, you know, our work. And something that I really want to know as a surveyor, because to give you my background before I used to work in real estate funds so the only time that I worked with a surveyor is for Appraisal. But then obviously for developments, for other works that tend to be more and given different surveyors. So this episode is explored more on that kind of subject. And so thanks for coming in and I hope this is a blast for all of us.

Tom: Brilliant, thank you for having me and yeah looking forward to it.

Darren: Yeah, well, for the audience who might not know who you are, would you mind telling them your background and a bit about yourself?

Tom: Yeah, absolutely. So, hey, everyone. My name’s Tom Parker. I’m a manager in the Federation Advisory Services at Colliers in Hong Kong. I’ve been working in Hong Kong for close to two years now. Previously, I was working in the United Kingdom, where I began work in 2011. So I’m a chartered surveyor. So that means I’m a member of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and I’m an RICS registered buyer as well. So most of my work essentially involves carrying out evaluation and advisory projects across Asia. So not just limited to Hong Kong, I still do some work in the United Kingdom as well. So it’s a fairly global remit. But essentially the main role I have is helping clients make investment decisions, helping them manage their portfolio, effectively, making sure they’re getting the right advice to make these decisions.

Darren: I see well so for the audience and myself who are not familiar with surveyors and appraisals, would you mind telling the audience a broad intro of the concept and what they do?

Tom: Sure. So essentially, appraisal is a function of a surveyor. So you can have surveyors for various different roles. There are surveyors who appraise arts and antiquities, there are surveyors who will measure land surveyors who be involved in the construction of projects. They’ll look at building defects, they’ll estimate building costs, what building materials are required. But most surveys generally, if you hear the term general practice surveyor, they’re typically property surveyors and normally commercial surveyors as well. So one of our roles is appraisal. And then alongside that, we’ll also do landlord and tenant work, we’ll do agency work as well. So we perform the full function. Appraisal is essentially giving a value for property or building at a certain point in time. So that’s one of the many roles we can fulfill.

Darren: So, yeah, I’m like living under a rock so there are a lot of questions I have regarding this subject. So before anything, right would you mind because just now you mentioned that there’s commercial surveyors, there’s a residential surveyor, what other types are there? And then what are the types that a new real estate investor tends to work with?

Tom: Okay, so the easiest thing to do is to split into three different pathways. So there’s property surveyors. There are land surveyors. And then there are art and antiquity surveyors. So the art and antiquities is quite a small arm. It’s a fairly niche part of surveying. And they’ll essentially look at the fine art, give values for fine art. They’ll appraise the additional value if it’s fine art at all, for instance, one example could be, I’m from southwest England, you may have heard of the graffiti artist Banksy.

Darren: Yeah.

Tom: Properties that have a Banksy on them, which a few do in Bristol, that can have a major impact on the value of that property. So we’ve seen vast differences between properties that have the Banksy on and the one next to it doesn’t. So that’s one side of things. Then the land surveyors, they will typically they’re the people you often see out on the street. They’ve got the tripods. They’ve got the cameras. They’re looking at distances. They’re looking at different heights of land. That’s how surveyors originally came about so that was that. A primary role, hence the term surveyors, it was surveying land, say, maps that you see produce. Where you see the contour lines. Where you see the heights of mountains. That was work originally produced by surveyors. That, too, is still quite a – it’s become much more of a niche part of surveying. So typically when someone says I’m a surveyor, I’m a chartered surveyor, they’ll be talking about property surveying and then we can split that into commercial, which is four sites. I generally look at commercial buildings, that’s offices, shops, industrial properties could be things like hospitals, schools as well. Then there will be residential space and then you’ll also have real surveyors as well. You don’t see them as often in Hong Kong. Fairly common in the UK and they will look predominately at farmland. They will work on the sale of large tracts of land. They’ll also look at alternative energy projects as well. Power stations that sort of work. And then there’s building in quantity surveyors as well. So a building surveyor is someone who you would call if you’re looking to buy a building, but you want to know, does this property have any defects? If I buy it today, how much money am I likely to be spending over the next five to ten years? I’m keeping this property up to standards. And then there’s quantity surveyors as well. And they generally work with long construction projects. And their job is to say, okay, to complete this project, you will need X number of bricks, certain amount of time. So they’ll work alongside the costing of a project to make sure all the materials are delivered on time. And you know exactly how much it’s going to cost. Now generally the main thing is commercial space.

Darren: Obviously, because in real estate surveying obviously has a very important role, which I’ll go into detail later on. And then just I think a lot of people, when they think about surveying, it works closely with conveyancing. Would you mind explaining it as well on the conveyancing as surveryors role in the process?

Tom: You see, conveying is essentially buying and selling assets. So a surveyor, you don’t need to have a surveyor to work with you to buy or sell land, but I would say it would be highly recommended. And there’s a number of reasons why. So if you bring a surveyor in when you’re looking to buy or sell a piece of land in the first instance, their role will be purely advisory. So you could say, look, I’m interested in disposing of this property. Can you come in and have a look at it? And a surveyor can come in and the first and they can do is give you an appraised of the value of the property. So at that stage, you know, straightaway, “Okay, my building is worth X million Hong Kong dollars.” So you’ve got a good idea of what you should be to sell it for in the market so you can have a fair degree of confidence when you do get an offer as to whether that represents market value or not. Another role for them may be to have them work with you to look at whether a dispose of this is in your best interests at that time. So you may say, okay, we’re looking to dispose this property in the next six months, but the surveyor might come on board and say, well, actually, have you considered this? And that could be a multitude of reasons why selling the property at that particular time isn’t in their best interests. So the surveyor should be able to work with them to help them come up with a much more fought out and structured disposal program. Then it comes onto the technical side of things. So a lot of the work that we still do is agency based. So we would represent the particular seller to help them find a buyer for the property. And that would involve not just finding the buyer, but also ensuring the terms upon which the sale is agreed, “Are they best suited to the seller and the best terms that they can get?” So that helps them know that they’re getting – so they’ll be getting their advice all the way through the process. Then when it comes onto the actual legal side of the conveyancing, the surveyor will work with their client alongside the solicitors to make sure that the client is getting real estate specific advice. So although a lot of solicitors are most solicitors will have a fair degree of knowledge in real estate when it comes down to some of the more technical aspects of real estate, it still pays to have a surveyor there in your corner to help you understand what it might mean for you if you agree to a certain term, what a certain clause may mean to make sure you’re fully clued up for about the process. And I think they can add the value that perhaps the solicitor can’t do in that instance.

Darren: I see. Because, like, it seems like a very technical work when I listen to it and everything it seems like it requires a lot of studying, a lot of experience, a lot of insights that a lot of people in the real estate industry might not even know. So what do you need to become a surveyor and what kind of license do you need to be one?

Tom: Again, this depends on what sort of survey you want to be and which professional background, which professional body you want to be a member of. So typically the term surveyor sits alongside the term charter surveyor. So if someone says to you, I’m a chartered surveyor or if you see the designation MRCS FRCS after their name, that will mean they’re a member of the institution of charters. So this was the original professional body. It was founded, I think it was founded in 1868 so it’s a fairly old body, take you back quite a long way. So to become a member of the RICS, first we have to do a RICS accredited degree. Now, this is something I think a lot of people who are looking to go into real estate don’t always realize straight away. So it’s something I didn’t realize myself. So my undergraduate degree was in geography. Well, actually, if you want to become a chartered surveyor and you want to do it as quickly as possible, you need to do an accredited degree. So I then did the master’s degree in real estate in order to get that Rik’s accreditation. Once you’ve got that, then you then need to find a job. So you’ll start off as a graduate surveyor. And typically graduate surveyors will work within different departments at the business so they can see, do I want to work in valuations? Do I want to work on professional advisory? Do I want to work for an agency? They’ll have the chance to explore different areas of business. And then as they’re doing this, they’ll be building up – we call it an APC diary. So the APC is an Assessment’s Professional Competence. And your diary is something you fill in as you’re going. So you have to do this over two years. And at the end of the two years, you can do your APC, the Assessment Professional Competence. And that consists of an interview and a presentation. And within that interview, the assessors will decide, does this person demonstrate the professional and ethical standards in order to become a chartered surveyor? So if you do fantastic, that’s great. You’ve passed and you become a Chartered Surveyor. The other route, and this is something that’s open to people who don’t perhaps have professional experience, sorry who don’t have the accredited degree is the professional experience route. So this would allow someone who’s accumulated a certain number of years of professional experience the chance to go straight through to the interview process. So a panel can then decide whether they have enough experience to date, whether they’ve got the qualities required. There’s different routes and not having an RICS degree is not necessarily the end of it but for younger people coming into the industry, it’s the quickest and the easiest way to become chartered.

Darren: That actually sounds like a lot of work. When you say it out loud, I’m just like, “Wow, I’m just really happy that I didn’t have to go through that path because I know it’s a technical.” I’m not someone that like you kind of just read some books and just know how it works. And it does require a lot of particularist experience and study and to be really good at one. So, you know, it’s something that is a very, I wouldn’t say rough, it’s more like it’s an interesting pathway, I would say, in the real estate sector. So it’s kind of cool. So, you know, like obviously this show, I’m sure you’re aware, is for investors or people who want to understand real estate, learn more about investing overseas or locally, and what’s the best way of the whole process. So there’s something that I want to know your point of view on is that what are some potential risk for real estate investors when they neglect engaging with their surveyors? You know, because just now, I think the question we mentioned before is that, you know, in some process, you’ll have to have one. But then it’ll be very important to be as advisors or having a longer team to help you out. So I would like to have your opinion on that.

Tom: Yes, sure. So for me, investment or good investment is about de-risking yourself as much as possible. Typically, for less risky investments, say, putting your money in a high interest yielding account, that’s a fairly low risk investment. So your level of return is going to be pretty low as well. We’re talking maybe one percent possibly. With real estate, you can typically get a yield. Yields in Hong Kong are very light. But still, you’d be looking at the moment to get a yield of around between 2.5% through to 10% plus. Now, the higher the yield, the higher the level of risk is. But if you want to try and really understand that investment, I would say the best thing to do is to bring on board a professional advisor. So this should be someone who’s familiar with the local market, who’s familiar with the property type and who can give you a fair appraisal of that particular investment. So, for instance, maybe we have a client – hypothetical situation we have a client who’s looking to acquire a property in Thailand. Now they may look at the properties and think, “This is great. It’s offering us 9.5% yield every year. It looks like it’s led to some good tenants. It’s a nice new building. Where does that go wrong?” Well, actually, there’s quite a lot that can go wrong. A surveyor at the initial stage, they get to look at that property for you and look at what’s happened in the area around the property. For instance, it may be there’s some serious infrastructure works going on that will affect accessibilities for that property over the next couple of years. If you look at the tenant profile, they may have that market knowledge vacant advisor and say, “hey, your anchor tenant has been in the market for the past six months looking for a new property.” Now, that’s information that you wouldn’t normally have unless you start to speak to a professional. Now, if you speak to a general estate agent, they may tell you things like this in order to try and persuade you to either buy the property or not buy it. If you’re engaging a surveyor and you’re engaging a professional, you should be able to rely on that information much more. As you know, the surveyor doesn’t have a hidden agenda. They make it very clear to you at the start. If they’ve got a conflict of interest or not, if they have, they shouldn’t be acting for you. But normally they won’t if they’re active for you. So you can be confident that they’re giving you unbiased and independent advice. So that can help you formulate the strategy for acquiring a property. So you may look at it now and say, “Okay, 40% the property could be vacant in the next 18 months, what’s going on in the market?” And the surveyor would be able to work with them and say, well, actually, inquiries have dropped down by 20% over the past six months. We’re seeing rents falling and they’ve fallen over the past few quarters by around 5% que on que, and our projection is they’ll continue to fall as well over the next couple of quarters. So you can start to build up much more of a detailed method statement for getting ahead the investments or not. And that enables you to do a proper appraisal. And it may be that once you build in the void periods, once you build in the rental decline, once you build in all the other factors, once you’ve come up with a final figure, the surveyor might say, well, actually you’re looking at this property for $10 million baht. Actually, we only consider the property is worth $7 million baht, particularly if you want to achieve your your 8-9% yield. So it’s it’s helping you to derisk the investment. There’s other roles a surveyor could fulfill as well. So you maybe you employ a building surveyor alongside your commercial surveyor. And the building surveyor might say, well, I’ve had a look at the, I’ve had a look at the construction and there’s a couple of hazardous materials within the building or there’s a couple of inherent defects within the building. And whilst it may not be an issue at the moment, over the next five to 10 years, this may become much more of an issue and may require a significant level of capital expenditure to resolve. So it’s looking longer term as well and looking at what your costs are going to be over that period. So you can see initially an investor may look at the investment and think this is fantastic, but then if they drill down a little bit more, they may start to see some of the issues, some of the hidden costs and some of the some of the things they’re going to have to overcome over the next few years. So for me, it is about giving the investor all the information they need in order to make us as clear and as transparent decision as possible. And that’s really the value of a surveyor. And I’ve seen so many instances where people have gone to buy property and haven’t been properly informed about the property, haven’t taken the right advice and it’s it’s come back to hurt them further down the line. They’re not making as much money as they could have done or they’re ending up losing money.

Darren: For sure. I think something that people it’s like, you know, if you floss every day; people know that they just keep forgetting it. So obviously, hopefully this type of video will help people to remind them that, hey, maybe you should consider engaging with one or having some one on your team to have better decision making. And then so I’ll switch back to something you’re more familiar with the commercial setting right. What kind of role can surveyors do to impact with investments?

Tom: See, there’s, obviously, the initial work they’ll do before you’re looking to buy the property, which we just covered. And then there’s the ongoing management of the property as well. So a surveyor or surveying firm, because you’ll be using different arms or different types of surveyors to do this work, will be able to manage the property for you. They’ll be able to find new tenants. They’ll be here to give you advice on what’s happening elsewhere in the market. For instance, have similar buildings sold recently. Are you seeing certain tenants looking to move around? What’s going on in the market? It will help you to to really understand what’s going on and really give you that information you need to make detailed decisions. So when it comes to when it comes to board meetings, you’ve got to be very clear, very concise details to have exact to what’s happening. So you can make the best possible decisions. One of the roles but is often blurred with an estate agent is on the agency side of things. Using a surveyor for the agency is very different to using an estate agent. First of all, about the additional professional and ethical requirements that a surveyor has, they can’t act for you or they can’t do work if there’s a conflict of interest. So, you know, everything they’re doing for you is going to be in your absolute best interests. And the advice they’re giving you is not to make you make a decision. It’s not for them to make to make a quick dollar from you. It’s for you to make the best possible decisions. I think really for me, that is the fundamental quality of a surveyor. And the reason why people should continue to engage with surveyors is that level of trust and that level of transparency.

Darren: I see, you know, obviously throughout the questions so far, you kind of listed out a couple of ways that surveyors can help. Would you mind because like a lot of people, might need some explanation of how to walk through and everything. Would you mind doing a walk through on one or two scenarios on how and why people need to engage with surveyors and let’s say a fund or, you know, someone who’s got a family office or something like that.

Tom: Okay, so I guess one example could be there’s a fund who have several commercial office buildings. They are looking at what they should do with these properties. Should they hold on to them? Should they sell them? If they sell them, should they sell one or two or should they sell the whole thing? So I would say if you’re ever in this position, the best thing you can do is speak to a surveyor straightaway. The surveyor will be able to come in and provide that information for you. It’s the way that would work initially, I’d say the best thing you could do at this stage is or the initial step would be to get a full appraisal done of all the properties. So that should enable the fund to say, okay, these are our properties. This is what they would be worth if we were to sell them in the current market. So that enables you to look at what the potential returns are if you were to sell the property. The second stage, I would say, would be to undertake a full market, a market appraisal, sort of to look at what’s going on in the market, to look at what else is available. So the surveyor could work with them to say, well, if you sold these properties, you would potentially have a large amount of capital that you’d be looking to redeploy. Now, you could look to redeploy that in the local market. And we’ve identified a couple of opportunities for you. And they’ll be given a list of properties and details on the potential return. Details on what we consider the risks that those particular investments are, how we see that property evolving over time. So do we see it possibly being under the threat of high levels of vacancy? Do we see new buildings being built around it that could perhaps access competition so that should then enable the fund to say, “Well okay, well, if we do sell, this is what we could buy instead.” And that could be extended not just to the local market, but also to a more international scale as well. So it may be a fund asking us in Hong Kong to look at this for them. And we say, well, have you considered investment in Malaysia? And we could connect them with our experts in that part of the world who would then be able to help them see what’s available in that market as well. So it’s about giving them. We’re not telling them which decision to make. We’re giving them the data. We’re giving them the information they need in order to start making these decisions. Now, coming back to the valuation side of things within the valuation report, as well we will typically give advice on what could be done within the property in order to help preserve its value or improve its value. So one of the things we might say is the current average lease term is fairly short. So if we sell the property and you can only say what the current level of income is guaranteed for the next six months, that immediately starts to ring alarm bells for investors. Whereas if we could say to them, if you extended that from, say, at the moment, the average lease time is two years, if we extend some of these key tenants, look to tie them into new leases and perhaps tie them down for longer period maybe up to three years that could have this impact upon your overall value. It may even be that you could offer them a rental discount to get them to sign a longer lease. And that would still increase the value because it’s increasing the level of security investors would have about the level of income. So it’s helping them there to position the assets as well. So say if you did dispose of this asset, this is how you could make sure it’s in the best possible position in the market to achieve the highest possible price. Then if you do say, right, that’s it. We want to sell these two properties. Then you could bring this surveyor back in again to help you sell the property. So that would be a case of producing a suitable marketing program, sending it to various parties who they may know are currently in the market and helping the seller to achieve the best possible price for the property. Then once that’s done, they could work with them again in terms of where do we move the money now? What do we sink this capital into? So it is about providing them with all the advice and guidance and making sure that they’ve got all the information they need to make the decision first of all and then making sure that any decision they do make, they’ve been given the advice to make sure they’re positioning themselves in the best possible place so that they’re achieving the best, the best possible result they can. Now, there’s other roles that the surveyor could do as well in terms of looking at redevelopment, looking at what upcoming works required. The redevelopment tango in Hong Kong is always an interesting one. A number of buildings could be redeveloped to achieve a higher sale price. And that may also be something the client hasn’t initially considered but it could be something we give to them. So say actually, your property’s worth two billion Hong Kong dollars at the moment. However, you’ve got an opportunity to redevelop this asset and there’s a building that’s recently redeveloped just across the street, similar size, and that’s now worth four and a half billion Hong Kong dollars. So maybe they then work with them on the redevelopment to that asset so that they’ve got the best possible. They’ve maximized the value of that of that particular property.

Darren: I think you did a great job of painting the whole picture, because now, I’m sure everyone will be like now I understand the differences and then it sounds like you are also the investors very close alliance to like how to make the asset better, investment better and think better. And obviously, the decision making is still on the investors point of view. But you’re there to support them in every single journey. So you did a very good picture painting of what you do and what surveyors do as a whole, how does the industry evolved over the years? And then you know we both understand Property Tech and the power of it. What’s your view on how technology can change the whole landscape of it?

Tom: So just to give a bit of a brief history and in terms of our profession. So Surveryors actually the first use of the term surveyor was actually found in ancient Egypt. So surveyors worked back in Egyptian times. They helped to map the land when the Nile would flood each year. And then when the flood waters receded, they helped to map who or which particular farmer would have which particular parcel of land. So that’s how surveying started. And then even probably up till 200 years ago, that was still the main role of surveyors. It was about mapping land. And it was about registering ownership. Now, when the industrial revolution happened and you saw more more commercial buildings. So up until that point, you had shops sure, but typically, a shop was the ground floor of someone’s house. You didn’t really have factory buildings. You’d have farms, but no factories. And the concept of an office was still fairly, fairly abstract at that point. So when the industrial revolution happened, you started seeing much more in the way of development of commercial buildings. And then surveying evolved as well to meet the needs of the owners of these buildings. So at first, factories, offices, they would be developed by whoever it was who would one day occupy the building, but then they started realizing, okay actually, we want to move to a larger factory, but I would like to hold onto this one and try and find a new tenant. And that’s where surveying really started to change and become much more transactional, much more advisory in that regard as well. And that was really the birth of commercial surveying. Now, as an industry, surveying has been fairly slow to adapt to technological changes. From a boss who used to take great pleasure in telling me about how the standard day would start, they’d all sit around in the mayor room for two hours opening letters. And a number of my former colleagues, particularly older ones, they would still most of the work they did was on pen and paper. They still like to use tape measures, measure rods. They hadn’t moved on to perhaps a bit more I’d say recent developments. But actually, the likes of laser measures, computer aided design, that’s been around for a long time. But still, there’s been a reluctance particularly among our oldest surveyors to properly embrace that. We still see it today. I’d say, in terms of the use of technology, surveying is is behind many other sectors. Now, I’m not sure exactly what the reasons for this are. And I have to say as well in Hong Kong, it seems to be a particular problems. I’d say Hong Kong perhaps hasn’t fully embraced all the changes in the same way as some of the other parts of the world have. But going forward, I think technology has huge potential to severely disrupt our industry. So we’ve been looking at this a lot lately, say, for appraisal, one of the things you can start seeing a lot more of and you start to see in other parts of the world is automated valuation models. So these are essentially what you would do you’ll see on a lot of Websites, you can get free one done, you just put in your property address and details and it gives you a rough value where the automated variation models taken that a couple of steps further. So, again, you give all the details about your property and then within, say, 10 minutes, it can give you a fairly accurate valuation. So I’ve seen reports saying that they’ve managed to get the automated vibration models through in 95% accuracy. I’m not disputing that and I think that certainly will start to happen more. But that technology is still catching up. It’s still trying to fully incorporate all the all the subtleties that perhaps you need in order to appraise the value of a property. But that’s going to severely change the way we value properties. And for investors, instead of bringing on board a firm of surveyors to do the evaluation for them in say, two weeks, if they could get a figure of in 10 minutes and minimizing all these human errors, that’s got to be a major attraction. The other side of it is we’ve agency. So we’ve seen the rise of virtual agents. So at the moment, these don’t take on any physical form. It’s entirely, entirely based online. But I’ve seen some places where you go out and you have the virtual agent on your phone and you can say, “Oh, hey, what did what did this property sell for next door?” And the virtual agent will be equipped of all the with all the transaction information that’s available. Everything that you’re able to build into that database and they can say, oh, this property sold last year for this price. Now, normally, if you go in the command of property, whoever is showing you around should be able to tell you roughly what properties will sell for next door. But to have this service, to have someone who’s got all the information on hand, every single transaction you’ve got records of, that is incredibly valuable. And these electronic agents, they’re available 24/7. They have a 100% callback records. So really, that’s going to change massively how we buy and sell property. Now, does that mean the end of people like me, humans surveyors? No, absolutely not. I certainly hope not. I think there’s still real estate. Real estate is very much relationship driven still. And I think always will be. So I think these technological changes will help to compliment the industry and they will help to improve our standards as well. They’ll help us to minimize some of our errors, they’ll help us to become more efficient. But as far as valuation gaze, yes, a large part of valuation is scientific, but also valuation is still very much an art as well. And I’m not sure a computer model will therefore be able to fully capture that. They might do. But my thoughts of it is that they won’t. So I think that there will always be a role for human surveyors but certainly technology has enormous potential to change the industry as we know it.

Darren: Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of similar products to facilitate a surveyor like AVM, for example, like I remember when I heard about it, I was like “this is too good to be true.” But a lot of people in the industry would think that, hey, some market you can do AVM. Not all of them. And not all the asset class, you know, commercial there’s not much comparables besides it. Residential’s are easier but even rezoning or a new development is still going to be very different. At the same time, there’s drill and everything. but I believe that a surveyor is kind of like, there’s so many neurons, you can’t just have a computer and say, hey, it’s the best outcome. I believe there are more neurons that sometimes it’s not part of that which comes – because our mutual friend Gary has startup called inflow. And so I saw a guest post on it about the global measuring standard. And sorry about that, National Property Management’s standards, sorry about that and then would you mind explaining to the audience what that’s about, because I’m very new to it and it seems like a very big topic in the industry.

Tom: Yes. Absolutely. First off, I’ll just touch briefly on what you just said as well about AVM would work better in certain markets in Hong Kong, we’re very lucky. The market is very transparent. There’s a lot of comparable information around. Same in other markets, Australia, the United Kingdom as well. Very transparent markets in some of the less transparent markets like the Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma. It’s much harder to find any comparable information at all. And even if you did, you can’t be that confident with it. You should never take comparative information you can find for these sort of markets and rely upon it. So that’s where again, it has potential. It has potential but there’s still a lot of issues. Then leading on to your next question about the international property measurement standards. I’ll refer to it as IPMS for short. Less of a mouthful, but that really is about transparency again and the information that’s available in the market. So before globalization, I’d say it didn’t matter as much different markets would have certain measurement standards and ways of measurement buildings they used. And it was fine because normally you didn’t need to know about other countries, other markets in as much detail as you do today. The issue we have now is if you’re in charge of the directive, the real state director for a large multinational company, you’re in charge of properties located all across the world. And if you’re comparing a property, typically what we one of the first things to look at with real estate is how big is it? How many square feet is it? How much is it worth per square foot? What can I rent it for per square foot, even down to what other running costs and typically running costs will be expressed, you might say it’s $30 US dollars a square meter to run this particular building. Everything is brought back to size. How much space do you need? It comes down to square feet again. But one of the issues we found and this was discovered probably relatively recently was only around 10, 15 years ago. But they looked at – they took the same office building, exactly the same floor plate. And they had various professionals from across the world try to measure the building and say how big that building was. And what they found is there was a 25% difference in unquoted areas between these professionals, which is enormous, it’s really enormous. And how can you make a decision about real estate and about property if you don’t even have the most basic of information available to enable you to do that. And what we were finding in the market is someone will come to us and they’d say, okay, we have 100 people, and in the UK we occupy one person per hundred square feet. So this is how much space we need. But then when you come down to looking for space, it may be that the UK is measured 25% larger than the market you’re looking at. So you may end up actually taking a space which is 25% too small. And we’ve seen that become an issue. And you see it is costly for businesses because they can’t fit all their staff into the office from the start and then they end up having to move once so they’ve spent all the money going into the office, and then they can only be there for one lease term before they have to move on to find a better, a larger building. So to help them with their decision making to make an even playing field, the idea of having a truly global measuring standard was introduced and it began life solely with offices from January 2016. So we haven’t seen huge uptake so far. But it’s certainly something if you speak to a Chartered Surveyor, it’s something they will be very familiar with and a chartered surveyor should be able to give you the area of building using the IPMS assets, so they should be able to look at both your buildings in different countries and give you a consistent measuring standard that you can then use to make decisions from. Now one of the reasons I think this is important for Hong Kong as well when it comes to finding office space in Hong Kong, you can very quickly become confused about what basis of measurement the landlord is using. You’ll see some landlords stating this office is 10 000 square feet gross. This is 10 000 square foot letter Bo. This is 10 000 square foot on whatever basis of measurement they want to use. This is fairly unique to Hong Kong in most other markets. All the landlords who use the same basis of measurement may not necessarily use IPMS, but they will use the same basis of measurement. But in Hong Kong, it can be very difficult to compare certain buildings because they’ve been measured in a different way. And this trips up a lot of occupiers here as well, because they might say, well, we looked at 10 000 square foot in this building, so it’s got to be the same in this building. Now, it all depends on what basis of measurement they’ve used. And you may think because you’re given the rent, they might say this is HK$20 a square foot. This building is HK$100 per square foot and think oh great this ones the cheaper building, but actually, it might not be. You may be paying more for the space you’re actually physically able to use because of the basis measurement they’ve used. So really IPMS is about improving transparency, letting occupier’s and letting decision makers see exactly how much space they actually have in the building. So it is a very important step.

Darren: I see, So it sounds like a very important thing to do, right? So let’s say if you have a big, you know, a broadcast or a voice through the whole industry, right, how would you tell them about how this standard can impact the industry? And I want to ask you more about why you think it;s not implemented yet? Because it sounds like something that from a surveyor point of view, it sounds very logical even when I heard a whole description of it, it sounds very logical so far but how come it hasn’t been taken so far?

Tom: Yes so I think that the IPMS is an initiative. So people who perhaps aren’t RICS members initially at first will be like oh it doesn’t apply to me, I don’t need to use this. And even people who are RICS members as well. It can be very difficult at the moment still to implement it. And a lot of that comes down to education. So a lot of clients will say we’ve always used this basis of measurement, it’s going to be very difficult for us to explain to our investors why the area has suddenly changed and you’re now telling me the property is 10% smaller than we believed it was. So that’s the difficulty. And I think that’s one of the roles as surveyors is to help raise the awareness of this among our clients and to show them the benefits of it, to help them feel more comfortable perhaps with utilizing it. It’s still fairly early days. As I said about technology in the real estate industry can be quite resistant to change. So I think it’s something you’ve going to start seeing more of going forward. And although it may be a while until all the landlords are using this, it may never get to that stage where landlords use this. But we should be in a position where if you’ve employed a chartered surveyor, they will be able to provide you the advice on this. And they’ll be to give you what the IPMS measurement is for the buildings you’re looking at. They may need to measure it again themselves. If the information isn’t available, but they should be to give you that information to help you make your decisions.

Darren: I see, so, I think today you’ve covered a lot of very important information about what a surveyor does, the future of it, what can be done and why is it important? What kind of take away do you want the audience to have? Regardless, there are maybe retail investors, family offices. What kind of tips do you have for them to find the best surveyors or engage a surveyor to help their investments?

Tom: Thank you, So firstly, you need to make sure you’re engaged in the right surveyor. Now, surveyors should be able to tell you straight away. For instance, if someone phoned me up and said, hey, I’m looking for some advice, I’m looking to buy a shopping mall complex in Australia, I would say straightaway, “Look, I don’t have the knowledge in order to assist you on that. However, I can refer you to a colleague who does have that knowledge.” So you want to make sure you’re using the right surveyor for the job. So surveyors should tell you this, but do look at their background, look at where they’re based, look at their track record. Look at what projects they’ve been involved in in the past. Make sure you get the best person to give you that advice. The other thing, and this is the absolute key, is have a chat with them. Explain what your desired outcome looks like. So the surveyor should be saying to you right from the beginning. Okay, what is your current reality? What’s the position you’re currently in? And now what is your desired reality? How do you want this to look? Once we’ve gone through the project and they should be able to give you some information there and then about how they will help you get from your current reality to your desired reality. But I think really it comes down to expertise. If you’re not using a real expert. You’re not going to be getting the full value for money. So you really need to make sure you’re using the right person. And I think that can be difficult to find, but typically, you want to find someone who’s in the market you’re working in or has a track record within that market.

Darren: I see. I mean, that’s what Denzity kind of wants to do too, because we thought that if we have a better assortment of different experts for example different types of surveyors, different experience, different expertise, then people will spend less time sorting to find the experts. And there won’t be miscommunications or disengagement with someone that cannot help you? So it’s something that always obviously to me, it makes a lot of sense, but something that a lot of investors tend to make. So I want to say thank you for this episode, for your time it’s very informative and for the audience who might want to find you, talk to you more about your services, how would you suggest they reach out to you?

Tom: Yeah, absolutely. So I’m on Linkedin so you can search for Tom Parker MRICS. Yes. Or Tom Parker Collier’s and you should be to find me that way. Similarly, you could email me. Always very responsive to emails and happy to speak to people, even if they’ve just got a question about how to get into the industry as well. So my email is And they are probably the two main methods to reach out and find me. I do produce a fair amount of media for other sources, but not on social media at the moment myself.

Darren: Okay, that’s fine. So I’ll include everything in the show notes and I want to say thank you for your time, it was a pleasure and I hope there’s a second episode where you can join us again, about maybe I’ll get Gary together, talk about the future of surveying, different type of a way of looking at it so thanks for your time again. Thank you.

Tom: No problem. Thanks, Darren. Thanks so much. Cheers.

Darren: Thank you, bye.

Tom: Bye bye.






 Tom:是的,絕對。所以,大家好 我叫Tom Parker。我是香港Colliers國際聯合會諮詢服務的經理。我在香港工作現在已經接近兩年了。以前,我曾在英國工作,於2011年開始工作。因此, 我是一名特許測量師。因此,這意味著我是英國皇家特許測量師學會的會員,並且我也是RICS註冊。所以我的大部分工作基本上都涉及進行評估和整個亞洲的諮詢項目。不僅限於香港,我還在英國從事一些工作。因此,這是一個相當全球性的任務。但本質上我的主要職責是幫助客戶制定投資決策,幫助他們有效地管理自己的投資組合,確保他們獲得正確的建議來製定這些決策。 







Darren:顯然,因為在房地產調查中顯然具有非常重要的作用, 我將在後面詳細介紹。然後我只是認為,很多人在考慮測量時,它與轉售緊密相關。您是否願意在轉讓中作為測量師的角色中將其解釋為?

Tom:您看到,轉移實質上就是買賣資產。所以測量師,你不需要讓測量師與您一起買賣土地,但是我會強烈建議您這樣做。原因有很多。因此,如果您打算在首次購買或出售一塊土地時將測量師帶入,他們的角色將純粹是建議性的。所以你可以說,看,我對處置此財產感興趣。你能進來看看嗎?驗船師可以進來,首先,他們可以做的是為您評估財產的價值。所以在那個舞台上,您馬上就會知道,“好吧,我的大樓價值100萬港幣。” 因此,您對應該在市場上出售的商品有一個很好的了解,當您收到要約是否代表市場價值時,可以有相當的信心。他們的另一個角色可能是讓他們與您一起研究是否這樣做符合您當時的最大利益。因此,您可能會說,好吧,我們打算在未來六個月內處置此房產,但測量師可能會說,嗯,實際上,您考慮過這個嗎?這可能是在特定時間出售房產不符合其最大利益的多種原因。因此,驗船師應能夠與他們合作,以幫助他們提出解決方案。還有更多的爭奪和結構化的處置計劃。然後涉及到技術方面。所以我們做了很多工作仍然是基於代理機構。因此,我們將代表特定的賣方幫助他們找到該物業的買方。這不僅涉及尋找買家,而且還要確保達成買賣協議的條件,“它們最適合賣方並且可以得到最好的條件嗎?”這樣可以幫助他們知道自己正在得到-因此他們將在整個過程中一直得到他們的建議。然後,當涉及到實際的法律方面時產權轉讓,驗船師將與客戶一起與律師一起工作,以確保客戶得到房地產方面的建議。所以雖然很多律師是大多數律師,當涉及到房地產的一些技術性更高的方面時,他們將具有相當程度的房地產知識,但仍然值得付出您角落裡的測量師可以幫助您了解如果您同意某個條款,這對您意味著什麼,某個條款可能意味著什麼?確保您完全了解該過程。而且我認為他們可以增加律師在這種情況下可能做不到的價值。


Tom:再次,這取決於您想參加哪種測量,要成為哪個專業背景,要成為哪個專業團體。通常術語“測量師”與特許測量師一詞並列。因此,如果有人對您說,我是特許測量師,或者您看到的名稱是MRCS, FRCS的名字後面,表示他們是特許機構的成員。因此,這是原始的專業機構。它成立了,我認為是成立於1868年,所以它是一個相當老的機構,帶您回去很遠。因此要成為RICS的成員,首先我們必須獲得RICS認可的學位。現在,我認為這是很多想要進入房地產領域的人並不總是立刻意識到。所以這是我沒有意識到的我自己。所以我的大學本讀地理。好吧,實際上,如果您想成為一名特許測量師,並且想要盡快完成,那麼您需要認可的學位。因此,為了獲得RICS的認證,我隨後取得了房地產碩士學位。一旦知道了然後您需要找到工作。因此,您將從研究生測量師開始。通常,研究生測量師將在業務,以便他們可以看到,我想從事估值工作嗎?我想從事專業諮詢嗎?我想為代理商工作嗎?他們將有機會探索不同的事物業務領域。然後,當他們這樣做時,他們會不斷成長-我們稱之為APC日記。因此,APC是評估的專業能力。還有你的日記是您隨時隨地填寫的內容。因此,您必須在兩年內執行此操作。在兩年結束時,您可以進行APC,即評估專業能力。然後包括訪談和演講。在這次面試中,評估人員將決定,此人是否證明其職業和道德標準,以便成為特許測量師?因此,如果您做得很棒,那就太好了。您已通過並成為特許測量師。另一條路線,這是東西這對那些可能沒有專業經驗的人開放,對不起沒有獲得認可學位的人是專業經驗的途徑。因此,這將允許積累了一定年限的專業經驗,有機會直接進入面試過程。這樣一來,專家小組就可以決定他們迄今為止是否有足夠的經驗,以及他們是否具備所需的素質。有不同的路線,沒有RICS學位不一定就是終點但是對於進入這個行業的年輕人來說,這是最快,最容易的特許經營方式。

Darren:這實際上聽起來像是很多工作。當您大聲說出來時,我就像:“哇,真高興我不必走那條路,因為我知道這是技術性的。” 我不是喜歡你的人,只是讀書和讀書知道它是如何工作的。它確實需要大量的專家經驗和學習,並且真的很擅長。所以,你知道,這是非常我不會說粗糙,這更像是房地產行業中一條有趣的途徑。有點酷。您知道,就像這次演出一樣,我確定您知道,適用於希望了解房地產,了解更多有關在海外或本地投資以及什麼是整個過程的最佳方法的投資者或人士。所以我想了解一下您的觀點,即房地產投資者在忽略與測量師的合作時會面臨哪些潛在風險?您知道,因為現在,我認為我們之前提到的問題是,在某些過程中,您將必須擁有一個。但是,成為顧問或擁有更長的團隊來幫助您將非常重要。因此,我想就此發表您的看法。

Tom:是的,肯定的。因此,對我而言,投資或良好的投資是要盡可能地降低自己的風險。通常,對於風險較小的投資,例如,將您的資金投入高息收益賬戶,這是一個相當低風險的投資。因此,您的回報水平也將很低。我們在說一個可能%。有了房地產,您通常可以獲得收益。香港的收益非常低。但是,儘管如此,您還是會尋找獲得收益率在2.5%到10%以上之間。現在,收益越高,風險水平就越高。但如果您想嘗試並真正了解這項投資,我想說的最好的辦法就是聘請專業顧問。因此,這應該是熟悉當地市場,熟悉房地產類型並且能夠給您對那項特定投資的公正評估。因此,例如,也許我們有一個客戶-假設情況,我們有一位客戶打算在泰國購置房產。現在他們可能會看一下屬性並認為“這太棒了。它每年為我們提供9.5%的收益。這看起來像是招募了一些好租戶。這是一棟漂亮的新建築。哪裡出問題了?” 好吧,實際上,有可能會出錯。最初的測量師,他們會去研究為您準備的物業,看看物業周圍地區發生了什麼。例如,可能正在進行一些嚴重的基礎架構工作,這將影響在未來幾年內該物業的可及性。如果您查看租戶資料,他們可能有空缺的市場知識顧問,並說:“嘿,您的主租戶已經進入了在過去六個月中尋找新房產。“現在,除非您開始與專業人士交談,否則您通常不會擁有這些信息。現在,如果您與一般房地產經紀人交談,他們可能會告訴您這樣的事情,以試圖說服您購買或不購買財產。如果您正在聘請測量師,並且正在聘請專業人士,那麼您應該能夠更多地依賴該信息。如您所知,驗船師沒有隱藏的議程。他們向您很清楚開始。如果他們存在利益衝突或沒有利益衝突,那麼就不應該為您行事。但是通常,如果他們為您活躍,他們就不會。這樣您就可以確信他們正在給予您沒有偏見和獨立的建議。這樣可以幫助您制定購置房產的策略。因此,您現在可以看一下,然後說:“好吧,有40%該物業在未來18個月內可能會空置,市場情況如何?”而且,驗船師將能夠與他們合作,說,實際上,在過去六個月中,諮詢量下降了20%。我們看到租金在下降,並且在過去幾個季度中下降了5% que on que,我們的預測是,在接下來的兩個季度中,它們還將繼續下降。這樣您就可以開始建立更多詳細說明是否進行投資的方法。這使您可以做一個適當的評估。可能是,一旦您在閒置期間建立了建築,一旦您建立了租金下降,又在考慮了所有其他因素之後,一旦得出了最終數字, 驗船師可能會說,嗯,實際上您是在以1,000萬泰銖的價格購入這處房產。實際上,我們只考慮該物業的價值為700萬泰銖,尤其是如果您想要達到8-9%的收益率。因此,它可以幫助您降低投資風險。 驗船師還可以發揮其他作用。因此,您可能同時僱用了建築測量師和商業測量師。建築測量師可能會說,嗯,我已經看了一下,我看了看建築,建築物內有幾種有害物質,或者建築物內有一些固有缺陷。和雖然目前可能不是問題,但在未來五到十年內,這可能會成為更多問題,並可能需要大量的資本支出來解決。所以它也需要更長遠的時間,並希望在這段時間內您的費用將會增加。因此,您可以看到一開始,投資者可能會看一下投資並認為這很棒,但是如果他們再深入一點,他們可能會開始看到一些問題,一些隱性成本以及一些他們將必須要做的事情在接下來的幾年中克服。因此,對我而言,這是向投資者提供他們需要的所有信息,以使我們更加清晰和盡可能透明的決定。這確實是測量師的價值。而且我見過很多人去買房而沒有去過的地方適當地了解了該物業,沒有採取正確的建議,這是回來對他們進一步造成傷害。他們賺的錢不如他們本來可以做的,否則他們最終會虧本。


Tom:顯然,有在您打算購買房地產之前,他們將做初步工作,而我們剛剛介紹了該房地產。然後,還有財產的持續管理。所以測量師或測量公司,因為您將使用不同的部門或不同類型的測量師來執行此工作,因此將能夠為您管理財產。他們將能夠找到新的租戶。他們將在這里為您提供市場上其他地方的建議。例如,出售類似的建築物最近。您是否看到某些租戶想要四處走動?市場上發生了什麼?它將幫助您真正了解發生了什麼,並真正為您提供做出詳細決策所需的信息。所以什麼時候關於董事會會議,您必須非常清楚,非常簡潔的細節才能準確地了解正在發生的事情。因此,您可以做出最佳決策。角色之一,但房地產經紀人經常會在代理方面模糊不清。為機構使用測量師與使用測量師有很大不同房地產經紀人。首先,關於驗船師的其他專業和道德要求,他們不能為您服務,或者如果有必要,他們就不能工作。有利益衝突。因此,您知道,他們為您所做的一切都將符合您的絕對最大利益。他們給你的建議不是讓你做一個決定。他們不是要從您那裡賺錢。為您做出最佳決策。我認為對我來說, 是測量師的基本素質。人們繼續與測量師交流的原因是信任程度和透明度。


Tom:好的,所以我想一個例子可能是一家擁有幾座商業辦公樓的基金。他們是研究他們應該如何使用這些屬性。他們應該堅持嗎?他們應該賣嗎?如果出售它們,應該出售一兩個還是全部出售?因此,我想說的是,如果您曾經擔任過這個職位,那麼最好的辦法就是直接與測量師交談。驗船師將能夠進入並為您提供該信息。它的最初的工作方式,我想說,您在此階段可以做的最好的事情是,或者第一步是獲得完整的評估完成所有屬性。因此,這應該使該基金能夠說,好的,這是我們的財產。如果我們要在市場上出售它們,這就是它們的價值。當前市場。這樣一來,您可以查看如果出售該物業的潛在回報。我要說的第二階段是整個市場,一個市場評估,某種程度上看市場上正在發生的事情,看其他可用的東西。所以驗船師可以與他們一起說,好吧,如果您出售了這些房產,您可能會希望重新部署大量資本。現在您可以考慮將其重新部署到本地市場。我們為您找到了一些機會。並且會為他們提供屬性列表和詳細信息潛在回報。有關我們如何考慮這些特定投資的風險,如何看待該資產的詳細信息隨著時間的流逝。那麼,我們是否認為它可能受到高空缺的威脅?我們看到正在建造新建築物嗎可能會參與競爭,從而使該基金說:“好吧,如果我們確實賣出,這就是我們可以做的。 改為購買。”這不僅可以擴展到本地市場,還可以擴展到更國際化的規模。因此,這可能是一個基金請香港我們為他們研究一下。我們說,嗯,您是否考慮過在馬來西亞投資?我們可以將它們與我們位於世界各地的專家將能夠幫助他們了解該市場上的可用產品。所以這是給他們的。我們不是在說他們做出哪個決定。我們正在向他們提供數據。我們正在為他們提供他們所需的信息,以便他們開始做出這些決定。現在,回到估價報告中有關估價的方面,我們通常也會就物業內可以做什麼提供建議為了幫助保留其價值或提高其價值。所以我們可能要說的一件事是當前的平均值租賃期限很短。因此,如果我們出售房產,而您只能說出未來六個月的當前收入水平,立即開始為投資者敲響警鐘。鑑於我們可以對他們說,如果從目前的情況來看,平均租賃時間為兩年,如果我們擴展其中一些關鍵租戶,希望將他們與新租約捆綁在一起,也許將他們捆綁更長的時間,可能長達三年可能會對您的整體價值產生影響。您甚至可以為他們提供租金折扣,以使他們簽訂更長的租約。而且那仍然會增加的價值,因為它提高了投資者對收入水平的了解程度。因此,它也幫助他們在那裡放置資產。所以說,如果您確實處置了這項資產,您可以通過這種方法確保其在市場上處於最佳位置,以實現最高的價格。那如果你說對,那就是。我們要出售這兩個屬性。然後,您可以重新帶這個測量師,以幫助您出售財產。因此,這將是合適的營銷計劃,將其發送給他們可能知道目前在市場上的各方,並幫助賣方為商品爭取最佳價格。屬性。然後,一旦完成,他們可以再次與他們合作,確定我們現在將資金移至何處?我們將這筆資金用於什麼?所以這是關於向他們提供所有建議和指導,並確保他們掌握了做出決定所需的所有信息。,然後確保他們做出的任何決定都得到了建議,以確保他們將自己定位在最佳位置,從而實現目標最好的,他們可以做到的最好的結果。現在,在重新開發方面,測量師還可以扮演其他角色,研究即將開展的工作。香港的探戈舞總是很有趣的。許多建築物可以重建實現更高的銷售價格。這可能也是客戶最初沒有考慮的事情,但這可能是我們提供給他們的事情。所以說實際上目前該物業的價值為20億港元。但是,您有機會重新開發此資產,並且有一棟最近重新開發的建築物就在街對面,規模差不多,現在價值40億港幣。因此,也許他們然後與他們一起進行重新開發資產,以使他們擁有最大的可能。他們已將特定屬性的價值最大化。

Darren:我認為您在整個繪畫方面做得很好因為現在,我敢肯定每個人都會像現在一樣,我理解了差異,然後聽起來您就像也是投資者非常緊密的聯盟喜歡如何使資產更好,投資更好並且思考得更好。顯然,決策仍在投資者的角度。但是您可以在每一個地方為他們提供支持旅程。因此,您對自己的工作以及測量員的整體做了很好的繪畫,這些年來,行業是如何發展的?然後你知道我們倆了解Property Tech及其功能。您對技術如何改變其整體前景有何看法?

Tom:因此,僅簡要介紹一下我們的職業歷史。因此,驗船師實際上是在古埃及發現了驗船師一詞的首次使用。因此,測量師在埃及時代開始工作。當尼羅河每年洪水氾濫時,他們幫助繪製了土地圖。然後當洪水退去時,他們幫助繪製了誰或哪個特定農民將擁有哪個特定土地的地圖。這就是調查開始的方式。然後甚至直到200年前,這仍然是測量師的主要角色。這是關於測繪土地。這與註冊所有權有關。現在,當工業革命發生時,您看到了更多的商業建築。所以直到那時商店肯定是,但通常情況下,商店是某人房屋的底樓。你真的沒有工廠大廈。您將擁有農場,但沒有工廠。和概念那時的辦公室仍然相當抽象。因此,當工業革命發生時,您開始在商業建築的開發方式中看到更多。然後,為了滿足這些建築物的所有者的需求,也進行了測量。首先,工廠,辦公室不管是誰,有一天會佔領這座建築物,但後來他們開始意識到,好吧,我們想要遷移到一家更大的工廠,但我想抓住這個工廠,嘗試尋找新的租戶。這就是調查真正開始發生變化的地方, 在這方面變得更具交易性,也更具諮詢性。那確實是商業測量的誕生。現在,作為行業,為了適應技術變化,測量一直很慢。來自曾經非常高興的老闆告訴我標準的一天將如何開始,他們都坐在市長房間裡閒逛了兩個小時。我的一些前同事,尤其是年長的同事,他們所做的大部分工作仍然是筆和紙。他們仍然喜歡使用捲尺,量尺。他們沒有繼續前進我想說的是最近的事態發展。但是實際上,激光測量,計算機輔助設計之類的東西已經存在了很長時間。但仍然,特別是在我們最年長的測量師中,仍然不願意正確地接受這一點。今天我們仍然看到它。我會說,利用技術,勘測落後於許多其他部門。現在,我不確定到底是什麼原因。我在香港也不得不說,這似乎是一個特殊的問題。我會說香港也許還沒有完全以與世界上其他一些地區相同的方式接受了所有變化。但是展望未來,我認為技術具有巨大的潛力來嚴重破壞我們的工業。因此,最近我們一直在進行評估,例如進行評估,其中一件事是您可以開始看到更多東西,然後您開始在世界其他地方看到是自動評估模型。因此,從本質上講,這些就是您會在許多網站上看到的內容,您可以免費獲得一份,只需輸入屬性地址和詳細信息,它為您提供了一個粗略的價值,其中自動變化模型採取了進一步的步驟。所以,再次,您付出所有有關您財產的詳細信息,然後在10分鐘之內,它可以為您提供相當準確的估價。所以我看到有報導說他們已經設法以95%的準確度獲得了自動振動模型。我沒有爭議,我認為肯定會開始發生更多的事情。但是該技術仍在追趕。它仍在嘗試將所有評估屬性值可能需要的所有微妙之處。但這將嚴重改變我們評估屬性的方式。對於投資者來說如果他們能在10分鐘內得到一個數字,那麼他們就不用花兩週的時間來聘請測量師事務所為他們進行評估,盡量減少所有這些人為錯誤,這將是一個主要的吸引力。另一面是我們代理。 因此,我們已經看到了虛擬代理的興起。因此,目前這些還沒有採取任何物理形式。完全是基於在線。但是我看過一些地方,您外出時,手機上有虛擬座席,您可以說:“哦,嘿該物業在隔壁賣了什麼?”虛擬代理將配備所有可用的交易信息。建立到該數據庫中,他們可以說,哦,去年該物業以這個價格出售。現在,通常,如果輸入property的命令誰向您展示周圍的人,都應該能夠大致告訴您隔壁將出售哪些物業。但是要獲得這項服務,要有人掌握所有信息, 您有記錄的單筆交易,這是非常有價值的。這些電子代理商可以24/7全天候使用。他們有100% 回調記錄。因此,確實,這將大大改變我們買賣房地產的方式。現在,這是否意味著像我這樣的人,人類測量師?不,絕對不是。我當然希望不會。我認為仍有房地產。真實房地產仍然是很多關係驅動的。而且我認為永遠都會如此。因此,我認為這些技術變革將有助於稱讚行業,並且將有助於也要提高我們的標準。它們將幫助我們最大程度地減少一些錯誤,並幫助我們提高效率。但是就估值而言,是的,估值的很大一部分是科學的,但估值也仍然是一門藝術。而且我不確定計算機模型是否能夠完全抓住了這一點。他們可能會做。但是我的想法是他們不會。因此,我認為對於人類測量師來說,總會有一個角色,但是技術無疑具有的巨大潛力,可以改變我們所知道的行業。 


Tom:是的。絕對。首先,我將簡要介紹一下您剛才說的內容關於AVM在香港某些市場也能更好地工作的情況,我們非常幸運。市場非常透明。有很多可比較的信息。其他市場也一樣,澳大利亞,英國也是如此。一些透明度較低的市場中的透明度很高的市場像菲律賓,越南,柬埔寨,緬甸。根本找不到任何可比較的信息。即使你做到了,你也不會對此充滿信心。您永遠不要拿到可以為這類市場找到的比較信息,並依靠它。這就是再次具有潛力的地方。它有潛力,但是仍然有很多問題。然後繼續討論下一個有關國際財產計量標準的問題。我將其稱為IPMS簡短。少說幾句,但實際上又是關於透明度和市場上可用的信息。所以在全球化之前,我想說沒關係,因為不同的市場會有一定的測量標準和測量建築物的方式已使用。很好,因為通常您不需要像今天一樣詳細地了解其他國家和市場。 我們現在遇到的問題是,如果您負責該指令,則是一家大型跨國公司的真正國家主管,則您負責屬性遍布全球。而且,如果您要比較的是房地產,通常我們首先要考慮的是房地產它有多大?多少平方英尺?每平方英尺多少錢?我可以租用每平方英尺租金,甚至可以低至其他運營成本通常會表示運行成本,您可能會說,運行這棟特定建築物的價格為每平方米30美元。一切都帶回大小。您需要多少空間?它再次下降到平方英尺。但是我們發現的問題之一可能是在最近才發現的10,15年前。但是他們看著-他們走的是同一棟辦公樓,完全一樣的地板。他們有來自世界各地的各種專業人士嘗試測量建築物並說出建築物的大小。他們發現,兩者之間的未報價區域相差25%專業人士,這是巨大的,這確實是巨大的。甚至不知道如何決定房地產和財產提供最基本的信息,使您能夠做到這一點。我們在市場上發現的是有人會來找我們,他們會說,好的,我們有100人,在英國,每100平方英尺有1人。所以這就是我們需要很多空間。但是,當您開始尋找空間時,可能是英國的市場規模比您所尋找的市場大25%在。因此,您實際上可能佔用的空間太小25%。而且我們已經看到這成為一個問題。你看到的是對於企業來說成本很高,因為它們無法從一開始就讓所有員工都適合辦公室,然後他們最終不得不搬一次,所以他們花了所有的錢去辦公室,然後他們在他們不得不繼續尋找更好,更大的建築物之前,只能在那裡租用一個租期。因此,為了幫助他們做出公平競爭的決策,入了真正的全球測量標準的想法開始了人們的生活自2016年1月起僅在辦公室設有辦事處。因此,到目前為止,我們還沒有看到大量的採用。但是如果您與特許測量師交談,這是他們會非常熟悉的事情,並且特許測量師應該能夠為您提供建築區域使用IPMS資產,因此它們應該能夠查看您在不同國家/地區的兩座建築物,並為您提供一致的測量標準,然後您就可以使用該標准進行決策。現在,我認為這對香港也很重要的原因之一,在香港尋找辦公場所時,您可以很快就對房東使用什麼測量基礎感到困惑。您會看到一些房東說這間辦公室的總面積為10,000平方英尺。這是10,000平方英尺的字母Bo。無論他們要使用哪種測量基礎,這都是1萬平方英尺。這是相當在大多數其他市場上是香港獨有的。使用相同度量基礎的所有房東不一定使用IPMS,但他們將使用相同度量基礎。但是在香港,比較某些建築物可能非常困難,因為它們是以不同的方式進行測量的。這絆倒了很多這裡的住戶也是如此,因為他們可能會說,好吧,我們看著這幢大樓的10,000平方英尺,所以在這幢大樓中必須相同。現在,這完全取決於他們使用的測量基礎。您可能會想,因為得到了租金,他們可能會說這是每平方英尺20港元。這棟建築的價格為HK $ 100每平方步行,想一想,這間便宜的建築物真是太好了,但實際上可能並非如此。您可能會為實際可實際使用的空間支付更多費用,因為他們使用的基準測量。因此,IPMS的真正意義在於提高透明度,讓居住者和決策者確切了解他們實際上在建築物中有很多空間。因此,這是非常重要的一步。


Tom: 是的,所以我認為IPMS是一項舉措。所以也許不是RICS的人最初的成員會喜歡哦,這不適用於我,我不需要使用它。甚至是RICS的人成員也是如此。目前仍然很難實施。其中很多都歸結為教育。所以許多客戶會說我們一直使用這種衡量基礎,這對我們來說很難向投資者解釋為什麼該地區突然發生變化,您現在告訴我,該物業比我們想像的要小10%。這就是困難。我認為那是作為測量師的角色之一是幫助提高我們客戶之間的意識,並向他們展示其好處,幫助他們感到更多也許對使用它感到舒適。還很早。正如我所說的,房地產行業的技術可以抗拒更改。因此,我認為這是您將開始看到更多前進的東西。儘管所有房東都可能需要一段時間使用此功能,可能永遠不會到達房東使用此功能的階段。但是我們應該處於一個位置,如果您僱用了特許測量師,他們將能夠為您提供建議。它們將為您提供正在查看的建築物的IPMS測量結果。他們可能需要自己重新測量。如果該信息不可用,但是應該向您提供這些信息,以幫助您做出決定。



Darren:我明白了。我的意思是,這就是 Denzity想要做的事情,因為我們認為,如果我們擁有更多的不同專家,例如不同類型的測量師,不同的經驗,不同的專業知識,那麼人們將花費更少的時間進行分類以找到專家。而且不會與您發生誤解或脫離接觸有人無法幫助您嗎?因此,對我來說,這總是很明顯的,很有意義,但很多投資者卻傾向於這樣做。所以我想說聲謝謝您的這段時間這是非常有用的信息,對於可能想要找到您的受眾群體,與您更多地談論您的服務,您如何建議他們與您聯繫?

Tom:是的,絕對是。所以我在 Linkedin上,所以您可以搜索Tom Parker MRICS。是。或Tom·帕克·科利爾(Tom Parker Collier),您應該以這種方式找到我。同樣,您可以給我發送電子郵件。總是非常響應電子郵件,並樂於與人們交談,即使他們也只是對如何進入該行業有疑問。所以我的電子郵件是。它們可能是聯繫並找到我的兩種主要方法。我確實為其他來源製作了大量的媒體,但本人目前不在社交媒體上。